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Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

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Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#221

Post by tonfa »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #119
tonfa wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially after we saw how happy the EU was to negotiate (they didn't budge) when https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Swiss_immigration_initiat... passed. The new initiative is basically the same, but with no leeway to ignore it. (that said I suspect if it passes, there will be something tied to the bilateral referendum in 2027/28 to try to supersede it)

> if it passes, there will be something tied to the bilateral referendum in 2027/28 to try to supersede it This is my thinking, too. If it really comes down to Chexit-or-nothing, we’ll have another referendum.

Well there's anyway going to be a referendum about the bilateral. (which is why I find the initiative somewhat stupid, you can vote on the real deal in a few years, about whether people want or do not want to have agreements with the EU, instead of hiding it behind a fake/emotional reason)

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#223

Post by teiferer »

philipallstar wrote: post #128
arjie wrote: post #31

This is such a fascinating referendum. The population is at 9.1m, and at 9.5m it appears they'll stall asylum and family reunification, and at 10m they'll execute a Swexit - Switzerland isn't in the EU but it allows freedom of movement to EU nationals. Boy it is interesting to see what's going on in the world right now. There were so many things that I saw growing up as relatively solid but I just happened to grow up…

> There were so many things that I saw growing up as relatively solid but I just happened to grow up in an era of European unity and American primacy European unity works well in a world of mostly-stable populations. Having mass migrations from large, relatively empty countries, to pretty full ones, is going to make the full ones increasingly expensive to make housing for, to power, and to water.

> mass migrations

> pretty full ones

C'mon, why parrot this nonsense? There are no "mass migrations" and neither the European countries nor the US are "full". Yes the Europeans screwed up real integration across the board, but nobody is really working on fixing that. Easier to just claim to be full and the immigrants are causing higher crime rates so no more people in but oh demographics, please everybody make more babies!

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#224

Post by ahartmetz »

stymaar wrote: post #208
kaufmae wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

most of the immigrants are highly educated professionals, big tech, pharma and meds. it‘s not the „empty“.

France is mostly empty by Europe's population density standard though, so even though it was likely not the intent of GP, it kind of works in that context.

>France is mostly empty

Which is so weird! France has large amounts of good farmland, some of the most modern (and unified, unlike Germany) government in Europe for a long time etc... no obvious reason to have just half the population density of Germany.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#225

Post by spockz »

throw-the-towel wrote: post #182
Schiendelman wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's almost laughably infrequent - you can use single level trains with more doors to triple that without even going to automation.

Has any railway network managed to get less than 15 minute headways? Metros don't count, they're isolated and often enclosed.

At some point we had 10m intercity intervals between Rotterdam/utrecht and Utrecht/Amsterdam in NL.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#226

Post by idiotsecant »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #114
idiotsecant wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no true scotsman

Not what that means.

Thats exactly what that means. The UK did the thing you want to do and had a bad outcome because they didn't do it right. The true and best and correct way to get it done of course would have none of those bad outcomes.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#227

Post by philipallstar »

bootsmann wrote: post #184
rayiner wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> benefits from diverse cultures You mean "benefits from increased population," right? Because isn't the whole theory that people are the same? If so, you're just adding new people who are exactly the same as the existing people. So the only benefits come from having more people, or more people with certain skills (if you're filtering based on that).

> more people with certain skills (if you're filtering based on that) This is how freedom of movement works, yes, and it's a key reason why our country is so rich.

[flagged]

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#228

Post by throw-the-towel »

joe_mamba wrote: post #168
foobarian wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elderly people in our village in east Europe used to be super suspicious of the EU project and would say that European countries get along like "a sack of horns." Hopefully they were wrong :-)

>would say that European countries get along like "a sack of horns." True words of wisdom. > Hopefully they were wrong :-) They weren't. EU membership and cooperation is built on favoritism and necessity. You get into the EU if you have something of value the other members need from you (capital, geopolitical, industrial, human or natural resources) done via treaties instead of via war and conquest. So it ended up as…

But what did Romania experience?

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#229

Post by jltsiren »

ericmay wrote: post #118
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> execute a Swexit It wouldn’t be full Chexit. Just renegotiating and then rejecting the Schengen chapter. It would then be up to the EU to execute its Guillotine clause.

> It would then be up to the EU to execute its Guillotine clause. These kinds of morally-superior, we'll show them, type of attitudes and suggestions are precisely why so many folks have come to be anti-EU. Nevermind the actual other real day-to-day issues with the organization. I'm sure you're also staunchly against Scotland and any referendum to join the EU, and against Catalonia becoming independent as well? Why s…

Those "guillotine clauses" mostly exist because member states didn't want to cede their sovereignty to the EU. If a treaty covers areas where member states have shared or full responsibility, it must be ratified unanimously by every member state. (Which in some case requires ratification by regional parliaments.) Any changes to such treaties must also be ratified, which means there will be 30+ parties negotiating and trying to win new concessions.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#230

Post by whycome »

arjie wrote: post #31

This is such a fascinating referendum. The population is at 9.1m, and at 9.5m it appears they'll stall asylum and family reunification, and at 10m they'll execute a Swexit - Switzerland isn't in the EU but it allows freedom of movement to EU nationals. Boy it is interesting to see what's going on in the world right now. There were so many things that I saw growing up as relatively solid but I just happened to grow up…

Just wait til Canada joins the EU and we will have a rethinking of any such unions as not necessarily being related to geographic location.
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