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Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

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Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#321

Post by surgical_fire »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #74
FabCH wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is about Swiss - EU relations. Everyone understands that a yes vote means the Swiss equivalent of „exiting the EU“. All Swiss-EU contracts contain a „Guillotine clause“ where if one contract is broken, all are immediately gone. The initiative explicitly requires breaking the freedom of movement contract, which immediately severs all other links to the EU. This _is_ pure political agenda driven campaign using imm…

> All Swiss-EU contracts contain a „Guillotine clause“ where if one contract is broken, all are immediately gone. The initiative explicitly requires breaking the freedom of movement contract, which immediately severs all other links to the EU Why does it need to be? Would freedom of permanent movement still be something Europeans would vote for today? Will the EU really hold hard on this line with Switzerland? (And d…

> Would freedom of permanent movement still be something Europeans would vote for today?

My guess is yes.

It's one of the best things that the EU brings.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#322

Post by unbrice »

atemerev wrote: post #156
jrflo wrote: post #3

So this is essentially a way to reduce immigration to the country? And if they get close to the cap they will "need to take measures, particularly in the areas of asylum and family reunification." Would be curious to learn more about why this is being proposed.

This is a way to enable deportations and curb permit prolongations, to delay reaching the 10m cap (which will create really bad consequences). As an immigrant in Switzerland, I am quite WORRIED.

> As an immigrant in Switzerland, I am quite WORRIED.

If it helps : Assuming that the initiative pass and nothing is done to reduce the immigration rate, the 10M threshold would be reached by 2040 according to the Federal Statistics Office. The current regime should apply to you till 2042 which should give you 16 years to make your way to citizenship (Among many other path that would let you stay).

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#323

Post by ashdksnndck »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #312
rayiner wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (even though in Switzerland more than anywhere else, immigration is at the foundation of the country's wealth). Is that true? Switzerland's foreign-born population was under 5% around WWII. Wasn't Switzerland already a rich country by then?

> Wasn't Switzerland already a rich country by then? In 1940, Switzerland’s GDP/capita was 2.9x [EDIT: the world average]; it peaked at 4.4x in 2000 and is now 3.8x [1]. (It increases linearly, long term, from the mid 20s until 2000.) Relative to Western Europe, Switzerland was 1.6x in 1950, about the same as today. [1] https://www.rug.nl/ggdc/historicaldevelopment/maddison/relea...

I feel like I have to read this backwards to perhaps understand it. Is 2.9x the multiplier of Swiss GDP/capita vs the Western Europe average in 1940?

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#324

Post by Avicebron »

tpholland wrote: post #307
philipallstar wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Switzerland does not have a homogenous population, and to a reasonable person who has travelled in Switzerland I think this is an insane thing to be defending. A significant proportion of the population (certainly for Europe) do not even share a common first language. Significant proportions sit on different sides of the reformation which is again a big deal for Europe. etc

Homogeneous isn't likely the correct word. Shared cultural norms and "harmonious" is often more accurately what people describe when the call a country "homogeneous".

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#325

Post by selfmodruntime »

kaufmae wrote: post #157
philipallstar wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There were so many things that I saw growing up as relatively solid but I just happened to grow up in an era of European unity and American primacy European unity works well in a world of mostly-stable populations. Having mass migrations from large, relatively empty countries, to pretty full ones, is going to make the full ones increasingly expensive to make housing for, to power, and to water.

most of the immigrants are highly educated professionals, big tech, pharma and meds. it‘s not the „empty“.

citation needed

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#326

Post by selfmodruntime »

throwaway85825 wrote: post #306
bojan wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Are the people supposed to eat rocks? Agriculture takes a lot of land but people need to eat. If anything agriculture is going to require more land in order to be sustainable.

well duh let's just import food from elsewhere (and completely ignore that foreign politic squabbles might crash this system)

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#327

Post by Teever »

tpholland wrote: post #307
philipallstar wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Switzerland does not have a homogenous population, and to a reasonable person who has travelled in Switzerland I think this is an insane thing to be defending. A significant proportion of the population (certainly for Europe) do not even share a common first language. Significant proportions sit on different sides of the reformation which is again a big deal for Europe. etc

I think that it's pretty obvious that the user that you're responding to is using the term 'homogenous' as a euphemism for "white"

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#328

Post by bluebarbet »

tpholland wrote: post #314
bluebarbet wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it favors social cohesion and social trust, which are strongly correlated with economic success. Americans are reflexively thinking of race, but that's entirely incidental and basically irrelevant.

But Switzerland emphatically does not have a homogenous population. It has an exceptionally diverse population, linguistically, religiously and culturally. And yet as you say it has an exceptional record when it comes to cohesion and social trust. Living the dream!

The social cohesion of Switzerland is mainly within the linguistic communities. Many Francophone Swiss hardly speak a word of German (just as their Belgian counterparts don't speak Dutch). And a large proportion of Switzerland's "diverse" immigrants are in fact from just across the country's borders (particularly Germans). "Diversity" is not what explains Switzerland's wealth.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#329

Post by mahkeiro »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #19
amunozo wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Way worse than Brexit, as Switzerland is much smaller, landlocked and had no colonies or anything like that. This would be a suicide for the country. Just populism to mobilize the electorate.

This is only about the Schengen, Switzerland is not a part of the EU, and even before the Schengen, the borders between the EU and Switzerland weren't heavily controlled. I got in trouble at German airport for going by train from Lausanne to Milan, and then plane to Berlin, I had no entry step into the Schengen because they didn't bother doing that on trains (pre-Schengen). Everything else is negotiated under separat…

Switzerland was part of Schengen from day one… New EU Entry exit/system will put CH in the same boat as UK with mandatory control at the border with scan of face and finger print + travel authorization. Switzerland would be completely locked. But some people are going to be happy as it would mean no more grocery shopping on the other side of the border.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#330

Post by selfmodruntime »

duped wrote: post #215
philipallstar wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There were so many things that I saw growing up as relatively solid but I just happened to grow up in an era of European unity and American primacy European unity works well in a world of mostly-stable populations. Having mass migrations from large, relatively empty countries, to pretty full ones, is going to make the full ones increasingly expensive to make housing for, to power, and to water.

Global freedom of movement was an inalienable right until European colonial powers noticed some of their colonies' peoples wanted to move to Europe. Large scale global movement is indicative of failure to uplift the globe from violence, poverty, and climate change. It makes a lot more sense to me for the global powers who don't want mass migration to do something to fix its causes instead of retreating inward and suc…

There was no global freedom of movement. Ever.
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