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Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

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Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#181

Post by Leherenn »

FabCH wrote: post #126

One interesting point for me is that, IMHO, the propaganda on the „no“ side wad _abysmal_. The counter arguments are awful and they are presented awfully and not even in such high quantity as you would expect. I think it has a good chance of passing just because of that. And then political shitf***y will begin with „we don’t know how to turn this into law!“, which is not good for the basis of democracy…

I agree, but it's also a lot easier to promise a silver bullet to everything than to propose improvements to the actual, hard problems.

Yes infrastructure are strained, but it's not like nothing is being done. It's just that it take decades, and will be too little, too late.

Same thing with housing. Every one is saying we need to make the procedures more efficient, but when it comes time to actually makes changes, there's no consensus to drop anything.

They could have done better, but it would have been very easy to make nothing but empty promises. I prefer they didn't.

Although I thought weird that SVP brought the "we will need to increase retirement age" themselves. It's actually pretty likely, but sounds like a massive own goal so close to the vote given how unpopular it is.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#182

Post by throw-the-towel »

Schiendelman wrote: post #164
kaufmae wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Frequency is basically 15 minutes almost all over the country already

That's almost laughably infrequent - you can use single level trains with more doors to triple that without even going to automation.

Has any railway network managed to get less than 15 minute headways? Metros don't count, they're isolated and often enclosed.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#183

Post by holowoodman »

soco wrote: post #68
ouk wrote: post #14

This initiative is a trap. Essentially, it would allow for the termination of bilateral agreements with Europe. This is what the SVP has been trying to do for decades, and this initiative provides them with a convenient excuse. And it’s particularly ironic because the SVP has always opposed legislation promoting sustainability.

I must wonder though who could profit from Switzerland leaving Schengen. Okay pass checks are only a little hassle, but visas can become bigger, and judicial cooperation on international crime just drops. And yes, no more cross-border workers either way.

> And yes, no more cross-border workers either way.

Well, that will be a problem especially for Swiss industry. Tons of workers from neighboring Italy, France, Germany and Austria work in Switzerland, commuting each day. They do this because workers are paid better in Switzerland than in neighboring countries. If those workers aren't available anymore, Swiss production of all kinds of stuff will take a huge hit.

For the same reason of wage differences, not a lot of Swiss people cross the border for work, and all neighbors are larger (except of course Liechtenstein, but that's a very special case anyways). So for those neighboring countries, it isn't that much of a problem.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#184

Post by bootsmann »

rayiner wrote: post #162
bapo wrote: post #146

Swiss here and able to vote. In fact, just posted my voting letter today, before taking a 1h bike ride through the biggest city in Switzerland, having lots of space and freedom biking around in our beautiful city. When taking the train to my parents house, I pass several farms and landly smaller cities. Alot of free space in between those, train mostly has spare seats, depending on rush hour timings. There usually ar…

> benefits from diverse cultures You mean "benefits from increased population," right? Because isn't the whole theory that people are the same? If so, you're just adding new people who are exactly the same as the existing people. So the only benefits come from having more people, or more people with certain skills (if you're filtering based on that).

> more people with certain skills (if you're filtering based on that)

This is how freedom of movement works, yes, and it's a key reason why our country is so rich.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#185

Post by [deleted] »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #179
ericmay wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because those would be breaking up the unions of those countries. It's no different morally or philosophically from Switzerland leaving the EU.

Say what? Switzerland isn't in the EU, how can it leave? It has treaties, but not membership. That doesn't make it "leaving" if they annul the treaties.

[deleted]

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#186

Post by Barrin92 »

ericmay wrote: post #118
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> execute a Swexit It wouldn’t be full Chexit. Just renegotiating and then rejecting the Schengen chapter. It would then be up to the EU to execute its Guillotine clause.

> It would then be up to the EU to execute its Guillotine clause. These kinds of morally-superior, we'll show them, type of attitudes and suggestions are precisely why so many folks have come to be anti-EU. Nevermind the actual other real day-to-day issues with the organization. I'm sure you're also staunchly against Scotland and any referendum to join the EU, and against Catalonia becoming independent as well? Why s…

>These kinds of morally-superior, we'll show them, type of attitudes

This is a strange framing that itself usually comes from a standpoint of moral superiority. When you sign agreements with a governing body, like the EU on freedom of movement, and you break that agreement then there's consequences. And I don't mean that in an underhanded agressive way, but just literally you've broken the terms you had negotiated.

The superiority complex really often seems to come from countries like Switzerland or the UK in the Brexit situation. Countries that already have often privileged deals and then decide to forfeit them, which they are allowed to do, it's not an attack on their sovereignty, the EU is not mainland China and Switzerland or the UK were not Taiwan, they're free to do what they want, they just can't have their cake and eat it too.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#187

Post by ericmay »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #179
ericmay wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because those would be breaking up the unions of those countries. It's no different morally or philosophically from Switzerland leaving the EU.

Say what? Switzerland isn't in the EU, how can it leave? It has treaties, but not membership. That doesn't make it "leaving" if they annul the treaties.

This was the OP:

> It wouldn’t be full Chexit. Just renegotiating and then rejecting the Schengen chapter. It would then be up to the EU to execute its Guillotine clause.

My terminology was matching what was used here.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#188

Post by trgn »

absent productivity increases, population growth is just there to maintain the welfare state for retirees, it's a perpetuum mobile. apart from that, i dont even know what the benefits of a growing population would be. switzerland is trying a different tack through democratic means.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#189

Post by kens »

alephnerd wrote: post #105
ryandrake wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What happens, specifically? Not that I'm a fan of "population increase forever" but what's wrong with Canada?

A lot of people on the internet blame Canada's malaise on their historically lax immigration stance. While to a certain extent it has caused some social issues (eg. Indian, Chinese, Viet organized crime took advantage of it to leave crackdowns during the 2010s and 2020s and degree mills abounded), it's impact on the economy is overstated. Canada's economy was always a resource extraction and construction driven econo…

Serious question: what is ONG? I assume it's like LNG (liquefied natural gas), but after multiple searches, all I can come up with is Oklahoma Natural Gas, NGO in French, and On God.

Re: Switzerland wil have a referendum to cap population at 10M

#190

Post by tempay »

contagiousflow wrote: post #142
kuboble wrote: post #132

Being in Switzerland it looks to me like this is a really tough referendum. Both sides have very good arguments and from the side it looks like either way the Switzerland has to give up some asoects of its high quality of life. If the initiative succeeds, Switzerland will get a large hit from the cancelation of a lot of bilateral agreements with the EU. If the population exceeds 10M then the current rail and road inf…

Can you explain how adding frequency to the train network will not work to compensate higher ridership?

It's not simple with the "clock-face scheduling" system which is used which times the trains to all meet at the big nodes (Zürich, Bern, Basel) so connections work. To achieve this trains are supposed to fit into 30/60/120 minute beats which synchronise the entire system. See [1,2] for how this works.

Also many of the most important parts of the system are at capacity. Bigger trains can help but a lot of these gains have already been realised in the crowded areas. The current hope is digitalising signaling to allow density to be increased but that's not simple/cheap even if it's cheaper than working on the lines themselves.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clock-face_scheduling

[2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMbV1rIPhCg

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