Live data from Hacker News

New Referendum Would Flip Brexit Result 10 Years On, Poll Finds

bloomberg.com

101–110 of 184 posts

Re: New Referendum Would Flip Brexit Result 10 Years On, Poll Finds

#101
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These questions aren't comparable. Japan had a crash modernization followed by a brief outburst of violent colonialism, which they thought was the style at the time but was actually in decline almost everywhere else. Britain had an empire that lasted hundreds of years, and whose greatest legacy is linguistic and temporal system dominance. Having spent centuries proclaiming itself to be the literal center of civilizat…

[flagged]

It's not a matter of ideology, or of punishment. It's simply the dynamics of the system playing out. It's alienating for people inside of it because they're experiencing the effects of historical forces which operate on a scale longer than human life.

OF course people would rather live in a period when things were simpler and easier, who wouldn't? The lie sold by the self-styled reformists (and doubled down upon by the emerging Restore Britain) is that all these unwanted outcomes were done to Britain by Other People instead of being the product of repeated bad decisions - Brexit being the most recent one. Someone else in the thread observed that about 27 immigrants are offered jobs for every native Briton entering the workforce. But this notion of prioritizing market forces at the expense of all other considerations is exactly the legacy of Thatcherite conservatism that has dominated Britain for nearly a half-century and of which the Brexit/Reform/Restor movements are the ost recent iterations.

As John Bagot Glubb pointed out ~50 years ago (and many others have pointed out before him), the root causes of decline are complacency, greed, and individualism (vs the notion of social duty). I put it to you that modern finance capitalism selects for these negative traits because they maximize short-term gain and because the accumulation of money allows the holders of it to be indifferent to the long-term structural problems. The primary reason I do not identify as a political conservative is that they sell tradition to the electorate but conserve wealth and power for themselves.

https://people.uncw.edu/kozloffm/glubb.pdf

Re: New Referendum Would Flip Brexit Result 10 Years On, Poll Finds

#102
post #99
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

>if people don't want parts of London to resemble Delhi, Well, there you have it. These people always shoot themselves in the foot. The other guy thought I was Indian and told me about how "weak" it is only one response later as well. Interesting, I suppose Indians are currently the most socially acceptable to be racist towards.

If someone criticizes Delhi and your mind jumps to people's skin color--instead of literally everything else about the city--then you're the racist.

None of the Indians (or Pakistanis and Bangladeshis) living in London want parts of London to resemble Delhi. They left their families and homeland behind to get away from Delhi and places like it.

Re: New Referendum Would Flip Brexit Result 10 Years On, Poll Finds

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The only stupid thing about sanctions on Russia is that they aren't harsh enough.

I 100% agree. They need to be much harsher and will lead to a regime change soon. But not in Russia, but in Germany (AfD), UK (Farage) and France (LePen), as predicted by Emmanuell Todd. ;-)

Re: New Referendum Would Flip Brexit Result 10 Years On, Poll Finds

#104
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A successful rejoin referendum would probably help contain Reform. However such a referendum is basically taboo in the British public discourse.

The taboo is the notion that the European Union needs to be reformed (no pun intended!). I was a Remainer, and do not regret that, but I hoped the EU would clean house. (Yes, the UK should do as well btw. Scotland should be independent. The House of Lords, Whitehall and Royal Family need a major overhaul.)

What reforms do you want to see from the EU?

Re: New Referendum Would Flip Brexit Result 10 Years On, Poll Finds

#105
post #21
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure that's part of why, but the bigger reason is probably a more reflexive "well we switched more left and it didn't help, what if we go the other way." After a dramatic Labour win, they're just Conservative-lite. That kind of "well this didn't work, lets go the other way" response doesn't necessarily mean anything about any party's actual popularity.

Huh? Brexit materialized in 2020. Labour happened in 2024. Immigration going up between 2020-2024. Going down since 2024. And that’s somehow Labour’s fault?

I'm saying that I believe public opinion on Brexit is unrelated to public opinion on Conservative/Labour/Reform. I also believe that public opinion on Conservative/Labour/Reform is unrelated to any particular policy positions of any of those three beyond "things were bad under C, lets try L" and then "things are bad under L, lets try R". That's my explanation for Brexit being unpopular, but Reform nonetheless performing well in polls and the recent local elections.

("unrelated" is too strong, but I think they're weak correlations)

Re: New Referendum Would Flip Brexit Result 10 Years On, Poll Finds

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A change of this magnitude probably should've been like an American constitutional amendment; a stricter requirement than 50%+1 vote.

What percentage of the vote was required to join the EU? The EU effectively constitutes a relinquishment of sovereignty, but that's not how it was sold to citizens, they were told that they could leave at any time.

You remember the story the citizens were sold but not the vote requirement seems odd. From a minimum of research, it seems there was no vote to join the EU, which did not exist at the time (1973) of the European Communities project with common currency and the rest. But in 1975 they had a referendum to stay and decided they would with a 67% Yes.

Re: New Referendum Would Flip Brexit Result 10 Years On, Poll Finds

#107
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>if people don't want parts of London to resemble Delhi, Well, there you have it. These people always shoot themselves in the foot. The other guy thought I was Indian and told me about how "weak" it is only one response later as well. Interesting, I suppose Indians are currently the most socially acceptable to be racist towards.

If someone criticizes Delhi and your mind jumps to people's skin color--instead of literally everything else about the city--then you're the racist. None of the Indians (or Pakistanis and Bangladeshis) living in London want parts of London to resemble Delhi. They left their families and homeland behind to get away from Delhi and places like it.

>If someone criticizes Delhi and your mind jumps to people's skin color--instead of literally everything else about the city--then you're the racist.

Hmm American spelling and a low effort attempt at DARVO.

So let's just cut through the noise. You obviously picked Delhi and the other guy picked India out of everything else and this is clearly not a coincidence. And there are certainly worse places.

My guess is the Henry Nowak case has recently made it more socially acceptable to be racist towards Indians.

Re: New Referendum Would Flip Brexit Result 10 Years On, Poll Finds

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only stupid thing about sanctions on Russia is that they aren't harsh enough.

I 100% agree. They need to be much harsher and will lead to a regime change soon. But not in Russia, but in Germany (AfD), UK (Farage) and France (LePen), as predicted by Emmanuell Todd. ;-)

...how can you wish for such a thing?

Re: New Referendum Would Flip Brexit Result 10 Years On, Poll Finds

#109
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

It's not a matter of ideology, or of punishment. It's simply the dynamics of the system playing out. It's alienating for people inside of it because they're experiencing the effects of historical forces which operate on a scale longer than human life. OF course people would rather live in a period when things were simpler and easier, who wouldn't? The lie sold by the self-styled reformists (and doubled down upon by t…

> It's not a matter of ideology, or of punishment. It's simply the dynamics of the system playing out. It's alienating for people inside of it because they're experiencing the effects of historical forces which operate on a scale longer than human life.

But British people today aren't doomed to allowing historical forces to play out. Or are you suggesting futility--that the British government lacks the state capacity to prevent what's happening?

Re: New Referendum Would Flip Brexit Result 10 Years On, Poll Finds

#110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A change of this magnitude probably should've been like an American constitutional amendment; a stricter requirement than 50%+1 vote.

What percentage of the vote was required to join the EU? The EU effectively constitutes a relinquishment of sovereignty, but that's not how it was sold to citizens, they were told that they could leave at any time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Accession_1972

> The United Kingdom consulted its citizens directly only after joining the European Communities: following the British general election of October 1974, the Labour government of Harold Wilson held a referendum to fulfill one of its campaign promises. The non-binding referendum was held on 5 June 1975, some two and half years after the UK's accession. It was the first ever national referendum to be held in the UK, and the "yes" vote won by a landslide 67.23% on a 65% turnout with 66 out of the 68 local counting areas returning majority "yes" votes.

I'm inclined to count that.

Post reply on HN