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Tracing a powerful GNSS interference source over Europe

arxiv.org

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Re: Tracing a powerful GNSS interference source over Europe

#31

Post by mrngld »

throw0101a wrote: post #23
sippeangelo wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The theory that they broadcast communication on a band near GPS in order to discourage jamming of their early warning system sounds likely. Flexing the ability to jam GPS is pointless, since it's obvious that any state actor who has military satellites in orbit has considered this option or have the capability already. Therefore, the disruptions must either be regular tests of the capability, or just actual communica…

> Flexing the ability to jam GPS is pointless, since it's obvious that any state actor who has military satellites in orbit has considered this option or have the capability already. Forget "state actors", truck drivers have taken out entire airports with GPS jammers: * https://www.cnet.com/culture/truck-driver-has-gps-jammer-acc... People like the Resilient Navigation and Timing Foundation have been trying for years…

The US still has a fairly robust network of VOR's / VOR with DME / VORTAC stations. Good for navigation, but there's no timing component, beyond what's inherent in how they operate.

Admittedly, that'll never be of use outside aviation as its line-of-sight only. But if the sun threw a Carrington event (or worse) at us, I think a lot of western aviation could carry on.

Re: Tracing a powerful GNSS interference source over Europe

#32

Post by Havoc »

sippeangelo wrote: post #5
yladiz wrote: post #3

Related Veritasium video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz23G_UXCGA

The theory that they broadcast communication on a band near GPS in order to discourage jamming of their early warning system sounds likely. Flexing the ability to jam GPS is pointless, since it's obvious that any state actor who has military satellites in orbit has considered this option or have the capability already. Therefore, the disruptions must either be regular tests of the capability, or just actual communica…

Unless the actor happens to be a state that puts a great deal of emphasis on flexing & appearances regardless of how pointless it is

Re: Tracing a powerful GNSS interference source over Europe

#33

Post by wcarss »

alex_duf wrote: post #24
wcarss wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or actual jamming mistargeted for some reason, or used because it was deemed necessary.

Repeatedly, over years, only for 2 to 5 seconds at a time? Seems unlikely

yeah, I have to admit I was commenting on possibilities here without having gone into the article yet -- having now looked for real, I agree that the disruptions don't seem very useful for actual jamming and repeatedly like this for years across satellites and bands in this specific way doesn't make sense for some mistaken targeting either.

Re: Tracing a powerful GNSS interference source over Europe

#34

Post by Havoc »

Schlagbohrer wrote: post #20
uijl wrote: post #6

Interesting to see that they are able to identify the specific satellite. I wonder if we can do something now that we know the source. Working on construction projects on the Romanian coastline (just South of Ukraine) and on the Polish continental waters (just West of Kaliningrad) we experienced jamming on a daily basis.

That jamming near Kaliningrad must surely be impacting the Russian residents as well, right? Unless it is very carefully aimed which seems unlikely since it is also trying to cover a very large volume.

>must surely be impacting the Russian residents as well, right?

They don't give a fuck.

Was watching a youtube video by a russian the other day talking about war & sanction impact and things like ride sharing apps literally say on screen the location is going to be wrong and to select pickup spot manually. It's just assumed to be fucked as a given even at an app development level

Re: Tracing a powerful GNSS interference source over Europe

#35

Post by rcxdude »

sippeangelo wrote: post #5
yladiz wrote: post #3

Related Veritasium video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz23G_UXCGA

The theory that they broadcast communication on a band near GPS in order to discourage jamming of their early warning system sounds likely. Flexing the ability to jam GPS is pointless, since it's obvious that any state actor who has military satellites in orbit has considered this option or have the capability already. Therefore, the disruptions must either be regular tests of the capability, or just actual communica…

There is definitely value in having a demonstrated as opposed a simply supposed capability, though. And actions that are 'almost-certainly-but-not-completely-provably-us' is very much something Russia likes to do.

(One question I would have about the comms theory is whether the amount of power being used would be reasonable for that use-case. Jamming tends to be much higher power than just communicating, but also GNSS signals are very low bandwidth as comms channels go)

Re: Tracing a powerful GNSS interference source over Europe

#36

Post by Joel_Mckay »

dwa3592 wrote: post #28

Hmm - the timing is uncanny that only 2 days ago I started building a dead reckoning system.

Your local cellphone towers already provide a more accurate position beacon signal for GPS modules in most parts of the world. Additional RF beam-forming in G5+ systems also make it impractical for lamers to jam long-distances due to limited coherent signal propagation.

Indeed, amateur Hams have caught Russian ships jamming/spoofing local port traffic several years before the various official overseas conflicts started. Not sure if it is government sponsored, or just various smuggling schemes like some ships spamming China harbors. =3

Re: Tracing a powerful GNSS interference source over Europe

#37

Post by DivingForGold »

You can likely bet that Space X with their thousands of sats deployed in space already has among them a few hundred stealth US military sats strategically placed and ready for the command to deal with the few Russky sats causing these problems ... think our Space Force.

Re: Tracing a powerful GNSS interference source over Europe

#38

Post by throw0101c »

mrngld wrote: post #31
throw0101a wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Flexing the ability to jam GPS is pointless, since it's obvious that any state actor who has military satellites in orbit has considered this option or have the capability already. Forget "state actors", truck drivers have taken out entire airports with GPS jammers: * https://www.cnet.com/culture/truck-driver-has-gps-jammer-acc... People like the Resilient Navigation and Timing Foundation have been trying for years…

The US still has a fairly robust network of VOR's / VOR with DME / VORTAC stations. Good for navigation, but there's no timing component, beyond what's inherent in how they operate. Admittedly, that'll never be of use outside aviation as its line-of-sight only. But if the sun threw a Carrington event (or worse) at us, I think a lot of western aviation could carry on.

> The US still has a fairly robust network of VOR's / VOR with DME / VORTAC stations. Good for navigation, but there's no timing component, beyond what's inherent in how they operate. Admittedly, that'll never be of use outside aviation […]

I'm aware of the FAA's MON, Minimum Operating Network.

Exactly: that doesn't help boats. Or people in cars. Or farmers:

* https://www.deere.com/en/technology-products/precision-ag-te...

It doesn't help those that use GNSS for precise timing (TCXOes can only 'free run' for a finite amount of time before drift compounds 'too much').

Re: Tracing a powerful GNSS interference source over Europe

#39

Post by TFNA »

q3k wrote: post #27
Schlagbohrer wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That jamming near Kaliningrad must surely be impacting the Russian residents as well, right? Unless it is very carefully aimed which seems unlikely since it is also trying to cover a very large volume.

Kaliningrad is one big military base.

Doesn't sound like you have actually been there. Military is a major employer, but in a territory inhabited since 1944 there are generations of people born there who didn't see a reason to live, the same foreign gastarbeiter as in any Russian city, etc. I.e plenty of ordinary people who could be inconvenienced.

Re: Tracing a powerful GNSS interference source over Europe

#40

Post by sorenjan »

Schlagbohrer wrote: post #20
uijl wrote: post #6

Interesting to see that they are able to identify the specific satellite. I wonder if we can do something now that we know the source. Working on construction projects on the Romanian coastline (just South of Ukraine) and on the Polish continental waters (just West of Kaliningrad) we experienced jamming on a daily basis.

That jamming near Kaliningrad must surely be impacting the Russian residents as well, right? Unless it is very carefully aimed which seems unlikely since it is also trying to cover a very large volume.

Yes, it's very wide spread and not carefully aimed at all. It's also not done by satellite but a ground based station.

https://gpsjam.org/

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