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Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

reuters.com

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Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#201

Post by [deleted] »

rayiner wrote: post #155
king_jester wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At the CEO level, I'd argue that you must look for people who understand the value of understanding their target audience ("customer") and taking the low cost / low friction action required. > Or, put simply, spend a couple of hours and $200 on cloths to look the part. Assembling a $200 wardrobe tailored to appeal to the innate biases of someone hiring based on the clothes you wear is not low cost, low friction, or…

> If your company is aspiring to the Goldman Sachs culture, I will never apply to or do business with it or you. There are a lot of things to fault Goldman Sachs for, but they are a tremendously effective and efficient organization. Most startups should be so lucky to be so well-run.

[deleted]

Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#202

Post by w1ntermute »

jlgreco wrote: post #163
rayiner wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's absolutely hilarious about it is that it's not the same frat culture that typifies Wall Street. It's the nerd frats.

Despite being a "nerd", I think the more traditional sort of 'frat' is actually a lot more inviting. Without the video-game nonsense I think it is actually more accepting of lifestyles that don't involve primarily a couch. The thought of spending my own freetime playing video-games is revolting to me, I associate it with depression and loneliness (yes, online or otherwise multiplayer games too). It really seems like…

The problem for me is the time investment required to be any good at gaming. When people say they want to play Super Smash Bros. or Halo or something, I have no idea what I'm supposed to do, no one wants to show me what to do, and so I lose interest very quickly. It's not like watching a movie, where you can spend two hours on it and come out with a decent understanding of the movie, even if you aren't a movie buff.

Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#203

Post by [deleted] »

adrianhoward wrote: post #128
jsaxton86 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've also worked with developers in their fifties who are awful. Age bias is awful, and I have worked with a lot of older developers who know their stuff and are extremely competent, but the idea that 25 years of experience automatically makes you a better programmer is wrong. Good developers are able to learn and adapt quickly, and often older developers can't do that.

I've also worked with developers in their fifties who are awful. Me to. And I've worked with devs in the 20s who are awful. And their 30s. And their 40s. And their 60s. I've also worked with great devs in all those age ranges. Proportions seem about the same to me. Good developers are able to learn and adapt quickly, and often older developers can't do that. I've not noticed a difference. I have noticed that it's har…

[deleted]

Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#204

Post by adrianhoward »

wbharding wrote: post #179
adrianhoward wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the best way to fight against ageism is to make an effort to retain an open mind and curiosity. The problem is that doesn't fight ageism. It panders to it. Ageism is when you don't get treated fairly just because of your age - no matter how curious and open minded you may or may not be. If somebody things I'm closed minded and incurious because I'm in my forties they are being ageist. They are the one with a…

I dunno if "pandering" is the word I'd use to describe those who intentionally take on an attitude of openness and curiosity. The fact is, most of the older people I know (my parents, grandparents, etc) still listen to the music they were listening to at age 25. Many of them (such as my aunt) are still working at jobs that use technologies they learned 30 years ago. It's not because they are incapable of evolving. I…

I dunno if "pandering" is the word I'd use to describe those who intentionally take on an attitude of openness and curiosity.

Intentionally taking on an attitude of openness and curiosity is, of course, a good thing at any age. I read (possibly misread) it in this context as meaning that you have to demonstrate this in some more extreme way if you're old. That, to me, is pandering to bigotry.

The fact is, most of the older people I know (my parents, grandparents, etc) still listen to the music they were listening to at age 25. Many of them (such as my aunt) are still working at jobs that use technologies they learned 30 years ago. It's not because they are incapable of evolving. I think it is because they never made it a point to sharpen their openness & curiosity.

I know people like that. My experience has been though that those people are just as inflexible in their 20s as they are in their 50s. It's just that it's trickier to spot - because they've been stuck for a shorter period of time.

If you're in your twenties and look around your peers now I bet you'll find some folk who are still really into the same bands they were into when they were in their teens. They'll still be into those bands in 30 years time.

My solution personally is to try to constantly force myself to understand and appreciate the zeitgeist of music, programming, and design as I age. In terms of personal empowerment, it seems to me one of the most sensible routes to fight ageism.

That's a fantastic approach to living an interesting and fulfilling life.

It's a lousy strategy to fight ageism.

Ageism is what others do to you. It's bigotry. It's not looking at you because of your age, not because of how open minded (or not) you are.

Being open minded doesn't help you since the person on the other side of the table doesn't see an open minded person. They see an old one. And they assume.

Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#205

Post by LastManStanding »

jpdoctor wrote: post #85
finnw wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can get sued for firing someone, but I'm pretty sure you can't get sued for declining to invest in a company (that would be very scary indeed.)

> but I'm pretty sure you can't get sued for declining to invest in a company Try this for example: "Our VC firm does not invest in companies with black founders. We looked at the data, and companies with black-founders have a measurably lower ROI." Are you still pretty sure ?

Excellent point. I doubt very much they would ever get sued - they are too smart for that, but it doesn't mean that what they are doing there is right. Could someone be so kind as to tell me how many people over 50 have been admitted to Y-combinator? How many people over 40?

Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#206

Post by jlgreco »

w1ntermute wrote: post #202
jlgreco wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Despite being a "nerd", I think the more traditional sort of 'frat' is actually a lot more inviting. Without the video-game nonsense I think it is actually more accepting of lifestyles that don't involve primarily a couch. The thought of spending my own freetime playing video-games is revolting to me, I associate it with depression and loneliness (yes, online or otherwise multiplayer games too). It really seems like…

The problem for me is the time investment required to be any good at gaming. When people say they want to play Super Smash Bros. or Halo or something, I have no idea what I'm supposed to do, no one wants to show me what to do, and so I lose interest very quickly. It's not like watching a movie, where you can spend two hours on it and come out with a decent understanding of the movie, even if you aren't a movie buff.

I think I know exactly what you mean. Super Smash Bros. is actually the exact game that made me realize I was no longer going to pretend to be a gamer, for exactly the reasons you explain.

Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#207

Post by DocSavage »

grellas wrote: post #191

I'm not sure why it should be a "dirty secret" that the tech world is predominantly driven by younger people who may at times be wont to push older people aside as suits their needs. Welcome to our capacity to be jerks if we indulge ourselves in that direction, as many will. It works the other way too, as all too many younger people can attest as they have occasionally been treated like dirt by those who are older. I…

It always confused me that some really bright young people (e.g., Zuckerberg) can't grasp this: the variation in intelligence and capability due to non-age factors >>> the variation in intelligence and capability due to age factors.

Put another way, I'd take Einstein in his 40s over a thousand other randomly-chosen physicists in their 20s

Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#209

Post by gonzo »

svachalek wrote: post #143
magicalist wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

er, ignoring the narcissism thing, which is bizarre (you want to hire narcissists, so better not hire old|ugly|disabled people!) your post seems to be arguing for the assumptions that the article is about: we can assume old people had to take shitty work in the past, therefore they are probably going to appear to be a poor candidate. This completely ignores the evidence directly in front of us that all good engineers…

This article was focused more on the movie-villain version of ageism (Over 25! NO HIRE! MUHAHA!!) but the real-world version often goes something like, "look at this guy, he's like, 38! if he's applying for anything less than CEO he's obviously terribad!" That said, I also think the argument missed the mark.

Or he's decided that being CEO is cool and all, but he would rather code.

It's not about the money once you have 'enough'.

Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#210

Post by adrianhoward »

gfodor wrote: post #200
adrianhoward wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd guess most ageism is probably imaginary Then you'd guess wrong. Take it from somebody in their forties - and I'm fortunate enough to be mistaken for being in my 30s quite often (the fat hides the wrinkles ;-) I'm pretty skeptical that many startup entrepreneurs have a "if you're over 40 we don't want to talk to you policy" but instead decide based on 50 year olds coming into their door telling them in their inter…

Huh? How is that ageism? I wouldn't say it's a matter of sucking or not sucking. It's a matter of perspective and sometimes inexperience plays to your benefit when doing a startup. Experienced engineers can identify known unknowns. Inexperienced ones have many more unknown unknowns. Ignorance hurts you in most situations in life, but in the case of startups, a little ignorance is often what it takes to try problems t…

Okay - I seem to have misread you. Sorry. When you said:

"I'm pretty skeptical that many startup entrepreneurs have a "if you're over 40 we don't want to talk to you policy" but instead decide based on 50 year olds coming into their door telling them in their interview how relational databases were figured out in the 70's"

I read it as roughly: "Young entrepreneurs don't have a [edit; Actually said "sorry" ;-)]

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