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Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

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Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#191

Post by grellas »

I'm not sure why it should be a "dirty secret" that the tech world is predominantly driven by younger people who may at times be wont to push older people aside as suits their needs. Welcome to our capacity to be jerks if we indulge ourselves in that direction, as many will. It works the other way too, as all too many younger people can attest as they have occasionally been treated like dirt by those who are older.

Is this good or fair when it does happen? No.

Is it illegal? Sometimes, but making formal proof is daunting at best and usually not possible.

Thus, it comes down to this: treat others as you yourself would want to be treated. If a workplace reflects that ethic, it will be a place where old and young alike will want to work and where older workers will receive their due as befits their experience, skills, and performance, good or bad; if it does not reflect that ethic, it is a place to avoid if at all possible.

While Silicon Valley may represent the ageism problem in a particularly acute way owing to its youth culture, it really is no different from anywhere else. There is the good and the bad, and we each need to do what we can to uphold a high standard of common decency for ourselves and to make sure others do the same. It may not be a complete answer but it can help a lot in our immediate work environments and that will go a lot farther toward solving the problem than the law ever can.

Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#192

Post by jasonlotito »

jsaxton86 wrote: post #90
krakensden wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've worked with developers in their fifties- they're scary good.

I've also worked with developers in their fifties who are awful. Age bias is awful, and I have worked with a lot of older developers who know their stuff and are extremely competent, but the idea that 25 years of experience automatically makes you a better programmer is wrong. Good developers are able to learn and adapt quickly, and often older developers can't do that.

> but the idea that 25 years of experience automatically makes you a better programmer is wrong

No one is suggesting that it does. However, to dismiss 25 years of experience as nothing is equally, if not more wrong. Consider that all other things being equal, the person with 25 years of experience will be better than the person with 0.

> Good developers are able to learn and adapt quickly, and often older developers can't do that.

What you are saying here is: Often, older developers aren't good. Maybe that's not what you mean, but that is what you are saying.

As for your assertion that good developers are able to learn and adapt quickly, I'm not sure what you mean (not sure of the context here).

Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#193

Post by adrianhoward »

gfodor wrote: post #182
adrianhoward wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the best way to fight against ageism is to make an effort to retain an open mind and curiosity. The problem is that doesn't fight ageism. It panders to it. Ageism is when you don't get treated fairly just because of your age - no matter how curious and open minded you may or may not be. If somebody things I'm closed minded and incurious because I'm in my forties they are being ageist. They are the one with a…

Yeah sorry I worded that poorly. My point is that I'd guess most ageism is probably imaginary and is just older people not being hired by falling into the traps I mentioned above. I'm pretty skeptical that many startup entrepreneurs have a "if you're over 40 we don't want to talk to you policy" but instead decide based on 50 year olds coming into their door telling them in their interview how relational databases wer…

I'd guess most ageism is probably imaginary

Then you'd guess wrong. Take it from somebody in their forties - and I'm fortunate enough to be mistaken for being in my 30s quite often (the fat hides the wrinkles ;-)

I'm pretty skeptical that many startup entrepreneurs have a "if you're over 40 we don't want to talk to you policy" but instead decide based on 50 year olds coming into their door telling them in their interview how relational databases were figured out in the 70's

And there is the problem in a nutshell. That is ageism.

The assumption is that they're saying it because they are old. Not because their an idiot (or not ;-). It's http://xkcd.com/385/ - but for age not sex.

There are older developers who suck. But it's not because they're old. It's because they suck.

Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#194

Post by LastManStanding »

chubot wrote: post #111
LastManStanding wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No evidence? He is overt in bragging about his age discrimination. He is likely the "thought leader" who made this practice acceptable in Silicon Valley.

* citation needed

"The other cutoff, 38, has a lot more play in it. One reason I put it there is that I don't think many people have the physical stamina much past that age. I used to work till 2:00 or 3:00 AM every night, seven days a week. I don't know if I could do that now.

Also, startups are a big risk financially. If you try something that blows up and leaves you broke at 26, big deal; a lot of 26 year olds are broke. By 38 you can't take so many risks-- especially if you have kids."

http://www.paulgraham.com/start.html

Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#196

Post by LastManStanding »

jiggy2011 wrote: post #188
LastManStanding wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not making any accusations against anyone - it is obvious that Paul Graham has an age bias - he says so all over the place, but there is no law against having a bias. Age discrimination is almost impossible to prove, but if it is being used in the decisions of who gets into Y-Combinator someone should look into it.

where has he said he has an age bias?

He does.

Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#197

Post by strlen »

Permit wrote: post #152
codewright wrote: post #10

Dirty yes, secret no. Straight talk: I'm the CTO at a startup and I often have to call out the founders and employees for ageism. I resent that they say things that make me think they wouldn't take hiring an experienced engineer seriously. I resent that they think my profession is best served by dumb happy newbies with no private life. I refuse to tolerate this in any company I work for and I will ceaselessly call th…

Doesn't shit-talking Nutrivise in a public forum kind of reflect poorly on both of you? I'm always weirded out by people who call-out their employer in a public space like that...

> Doesn't shit-talking $company in a public forum kind of reflect poorly on both of you? I'm always weirded out by people who call-out their employer in a public space like that...

He doesn't mention employer publicly. I can't even reasonably assume it's $company (Do you have an axe to grind against either? I've flagged this, as it appears to be the case.)

Furthermore, being critical reflects well on codewright in his capacity as an officer of a company. Being able to accept constructive criticism reflects well on $company (assuming it even is $company).

(Not mentioning $company by name as hoping the comment I am replying to will get killed; codewright made a deliberate choice not to include personal details in his profile, so let's honour it.)

Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#199

Post by strlen »

embwbam wrote: post #79
samspot wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I'm hearing from many posters in these comments is my level of fashion-conciousness indicates how innovative I am. I think it's a big mistake to judge a candidate's aptitude for the work by how hip they look. This is the last industry I thought we'd have to face this kind of thing in.

Well, wait. I've always said this too: it shouldn't matter how I dress. But the truth is that dress is very frequently an indicator of how aware one is. It's a social consciousness that is sometimes reflected in other things (like being able to adapt to a new technology). Look at this comic: http://xkcd.com/1139/ - the playground jerks call the guy a loser because he isn't playing the social game. They are right that…

> Look at this comic: http://xkcd.com/1139/ - the playground jerks call the guy a loser because he isn't playing the social game. They are right that he is "losing" the social playground game. He doesn't care, but that's kind of what these startups are looking for.

http://www.paulgraham.com/nerds.html

Re: Silicon Valley's dirty secret - age bias

#200

Post by gfodor »

adrianhoward wrote: post #193
gfodor wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah sorry I worded that poorly. My point is that I'd guess most ageism is probably imaginary and is just older people not being hired by falling into the traps I mentioned above. I'm pretty skeptical that many startup entrepreneurs have a "if you're over 40 we don't want to talk to you policy" but instead decide based on 50 year olds coming into their door telling them in their interview how relational databases wer…

I'd guess most ageism is probably imaginary Then you'd guess wrong. Take it from somebody in their forties - and I'm fortunate enough to be mistaken for being in my 30s quite often (the fat hides the wrinkles ;-) I'm pretty skeptical that many startup entrepreneurs have a "if you're over 40 we don't want to talk to you policy" but instead decide based on 50 year olds coming into their door telling them in their inter…

Huh? How is that ageism? I wouldn't say it's a matter of sucking or not sucking. It's a matter of perspective and sometimes inexperience plays to your benefit when doing a startup. Experienced engineers can identify known unknowns. Inexperienced ones have many more unknown unknowns. Ignorance hurts you in most situations in life, but in the case of startups, a little ignorance is often what it takes to try problems that everyone else has ignored because they thought they were "solved."
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