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Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

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Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#431

Post by SoftTalker »

pseudocomposer wrote: post #404
camelmel wrote: post #35

I have some sympathy for these kids. If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. Now I work mostly with PhDs who were at the top of every academic environment they've ever been in. And yet I can see their thinking skills rapidly declining as well; many of them can no longer brainstorm, code, think deeply, or write without…

We’re in a world where LLMs are basically going to be extensions of how we think. An additional thing we use to do a lot of thinking tasks. As a piano player, it’s important to work hands separately. Sometimes your right hand will carry the melody and your left hand the harmony, sometimes vice versa. Sometimes there may be more than just two “voices”/melodies/lines between your two hands. Even as a very good (as in g…

> We’re in a world where LLMs are basically going to be extensions of how we think

If that's the case then we're in trouble based on my experience. This week I've been using ChatGPT to help figure out some old linux platform that I need to resurrect. It's very good at quickly searching and surfacing relevant information online, and that's helpful, but if I did not have a lot of experience at linux administration to be able to see where it was suggesting the wrong thing, or initially dismissing the right thing, then I'd just be thrashing.

The LLM is helping me because I know what I need, and it can search and read faster than I can. But it's not really very smart.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#432

Post by lee_ars »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #330
camelmel wrote: post #35

I have some sympathy for these kids. If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. Now I work mostly with PhDs who were at the top of every academic environment they've ever been in. And yet I can see their thinking skills rapidly declining as well; many of them can no longer brainstorm, code, think deeply, or write without…

> If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. You go to a university because you are deeply interested in understanding the subject that you study. Doing the homework and the tests are just the "goalposts" to check for yourself whether you made progress on this. So, as long as you are not under time pressure (which you in…

> You go to a university because you are deeply interested in understanding the subject that you study.

Echoing the other comments here, at least in the US, this is generally untrue. I went because my parents made me, because the choice was that or get kicked out of the house. It was beaten into my head since I was in grade school that "people in this family go to college" and "you can't get a good job without a college degree."

I hated every moment of it and I was glad to take my BSc and never look back once it was over (University of Houston, c/o 2000). And, indeed, without the degree I wouldn't have had the jobs I've had.

But I didn't go because I was "interested." I went because it was an effectively mandatory life-path objective. I'm very happy for you if your lived experience is different, but it is also—at least in the US—both extremely uncommon and extremely privileged.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#433

Post by rybosworld »

boringg wrote: post #421
rybosworld wrote: post #419

If you watch old videos of tradesmen using basic hand tools like hammers, you'll find examples of skill/dexterity with the tool that I think don't exist today at all except maybe in communities like the Amish. I think it's true that we collectively lose something akin to beauty every time technology advances. But usually some new set of skills that have beauty emerge. If LLMs end up being the pneumatic nail gun for t…

I mean the argument that is being put forward is that it isn't a pneumatic nail gun for the human mind - it atrophies are mathematical capability and quality of understanding.

Right - but you could imagine a similar sentiment anytime a skill was replaced by a new technology.

I think the jury is still out on whether LLMs actually lead to complete atrophy of skills that don't eventually get replaced with brand new skills.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#434

Post by kibwen »

pseudocomposer wrote: post #404
camelmel wrote: post #35

I have some sympathy for these kids. If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. Now I work mostly with PhDs who were at the top of every academic environment they've ever been in. And yet I can see their thinking skills rapidly declining as well; many of them can no longer brainstorm, code, think deeply, or write without…

We’re in a world where LLMs are basically going to be extensions of how we think. An additional thing we use to do a lot of thinking tasks. As a piano player, it’s important to work hands separately. Sometimes your right hand will carry the melody and your left hand the harmony, sometimes vice versa. Sometimes there may be more than just two “voices”/melodies/lines between your two hands. Even as a very good (as in g…

> An additional thing we use to do a lot of thinking tasks.

Which is to say, an additional thing you're going to be forced to pay a lifelong tithe to a trillion-dollar company in order to do a lot of thinking tasks.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#436

Post by SoftTalker »

adamcharnock wrote: post #112
camelmel wrote: post #35

I have some sympathy for these kids. If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. Now I work mostly with PhDs who were at the top of every academic environment they've ever been in. And yet I can see their thinking skills rapidly declining as well; many of them can no longer brainstorm, code, think deeply, or write without…

I've been wondering if there would be a benefit to inverting how we teach subjects now. Previously we would teach from the bottom, and build up. Semi-colon goes here, curly brace goes there, and then build up to architecture, systems, etc. But this doesn't seem to make sense when someone comes to a topic with an LLM in-hand. They need to know high-level techniques, architecture, best practice, etc. As they pursue the…

> Semi-colon goes here, curly brace goes there, and then build up to architecture, systems, etc.

If that's happening, that would be a weird way to teach CS in my opinion.

In my undergrad program, languages and syntax were learned on your own. Class material and lectures were all conceptual.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#437

Post by tstrimple »

jordanpg wrote: post #373
camelmel wrote: post #35

I have some sympathy for these kids. If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. Now I work mostly with PhDs who were at the top of every academic environment they've ever been in. And yet I can see their thinking skills rapidly declining as well; many of them can no longer brainstorm, code, think deeply, or write without…

> If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. As a counterpoint, I was once a physics grad student. I didn't finish the PhD because at some point I discovered that I was not going to be the next Richard Feynman and this was too much for my ego at the time. But I think that if LLMs were available, I might have finished. Pa…

This is also where I had issues advancing in math. For so long I was able to build intuition around mathematical concepts easily. They fit in my head and made sense. I couldn’t understand why my peers were so bad and slow at picking up the concepts. Until my first calculus class where there was absolutely no focus on the intuition or practical utility. It was just formulas for the sake of formulas as exposed by our teacher.

It wasn’t until I was curious enough to learn about calculus outside of the classroom that I was exposed to things which helped develop that intuition and made the calculations something other than just symbols and equations to memorize.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#438

Post by jplusequalt »

phantom784 wrote: post #287
helsinkiandrew wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. I agree - I would have been toast. I wonder if the teachers/colleges need to change the way they teach and assess. Let the students use the AI tools they like (perhaps guide them how they can use them professionally), but test regularly and early on the skills/knowledge they'r…

> I read a few years ago about a teacher (I think highschool) who put his lectures on YouTube for students to view in their own time and then used the in class hours for interaction, questions, tests. That seems like a smart approach. It reverses the traditional model of "lecture in class, homework outside of class".

How does this scale in practice? We already require students be at school for 7 hours a day. If they now have to watch 3-4 hours of lectures at home every day, then students are left with little time to do anything else.

What about those students who don't have stable home environments? How are they supposed to find multiple hours a day to watch lectures?

How does this address the underlying issue of students off loading work? You've replaced homework with lectures, but haven't solved the problem of making sure the student is actually participating.

Logistically, this could only work if you shortened the school days, but then you would need to adjust the rest of society around that. Many parents structure their work days around their kids school schedules, and if kids need to go school later in the day, or get out earlier, that places a burden on the parents.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#439

Post by sfink »

williamstein wrote: post #7

> Some of the numbers that you saw from the number of students who receive failing grades were because we caught them (cheating) and prosecuted them and are sending their cases to the center for student conduct,” Garcia said. According to Garcia, nearly 30 students in CS 10 were caught cheating on take-home exams in spring 2026.

Is flunking kids the right reaction to catching them cheating? If it was before LLMs, is it still? I would love to be able to hold the line and throw the book at anyone who cheats, but after the dam has burst does it still help to try to hold the water back?

The whole situation sucks for both students and teachers. Teachers know that the knowledge they're going to great effort to convey isn't going anywhere. Or at least, it's landing in far fewer fertile brains than it used to. Students are squeezed because part of the university experience is being forced to adapt to an academic load, and as a result change yourself in ways that benefit you (or at least produce learning!) There have always been relief valves -- not just forms of cheating, but blowing off a study session by using game theory on your grade or going to a tutor or taking easier classes or extending your stay at the school. But now there's this huge giant relief valve in the form of a shiny LLM that is always available, particular at 3:45am when your project -- the one you've steadfastly refused to use AI on thus far -- is due the next day. The schools have tuned the pressure for the old set of options, and it's not clear that there's a new tuning that maintains anywhere near the old level of learning.

I guess my question is: of those students who were flunked for cheating, how many of them were learning despite their cheating? (And how about the students who were cheating but not caught?) Also, what levers are there to move more students towards learning even with the chatbots present?

I'm sure these questions are being debated. I know Garcia personally, and he is very invested in his students learning. The title of his Joy course is legit. So I'm sure the profs have ideas around this, though clearly not happy ones. Perhaps I'll ask him.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#440

Post by jplusequalt »

olpad wrote: post #300
phantom784 wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I read a few years ago about a teacher (I think highschool) who put his lectures on YouTube for students to view in their own time and then used the in class hours for interaction, questions, tests. That seems like a smart approach. It reverses the traditional model of "lecture in class, homework outside of class".

I always absolutely hated when a teacher did a reverse classroom and I had to “learn” at home and then practice in the classroom. I think the solution is more engaging lessons and less outside work. I know why homework exists, but homework is a chore that most people want to get done as fast as possible. If kids got to learn something interesting in school and then have their free time after school, there would be le…

>If kids got to learn something interesting in school and then have their free time after school, there would be less dependence on AI.

Kids get to learn lots of interesting things in school. The problem is that they're kids! They want immediate gratification from phones/games/recess, not to do the hard work of learning.

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