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Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

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Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#401

> “I’m a strong, strong opponent of what Harvard is doing to say that only a fraction of students can earn A’s,” Garcia said. “I think you should have clear standards for what an A means, and then give tons of opportunity for people … to get to that A bar without lowering the standard. So everybody who’s curving is hiding that effect. It’s completely hiding that effect, and it’s pretending as if nothing’s wrong, and…

But when there is no standard and students are subject to tests created by and graded by egotistical narcissists, a curve can be the only way anyone passes the course at all. It simply wouldn’t be acceptable for 5 of 50 students to pass because professor egghead can’t write coherent question on a test. I had classes where I didn’t make over a 50% on any test and still got an A because half the class dropped and the o…

> I think curves are more a result of poor teachers than anything

Precisely right - that's what I said, too. You fit a curve to see if your coursework/exams fit the students. But you don't fit a curve to ensure that "precisely 10% of the class gets A, 20% gets B" etc etc. If you dont like the grades your students are receiving, you either fix the coursework or the students.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#402

It's a strange thing that as humans, we sleepwalk into every crisis, never agreeing on anything, and then when we're there, we also never agree on the causes. When we ge too the point where we can no longer "engineer" or "science" anything we will spend the next decade arguing that the issue was not really AI, or that if it was, it was inevitable and no one (or everyone) was to blame. Rinse, repeat. Yet we're here, t…

Yes, climate change debate went the same way.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It takes time to work through the system and it has been steadily getting worse. It was already discussed on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48309233

I'm having a difficult time imagining how an admissions event in 2021 materializes in the spring semester of 2026 in a class largely taken by first-year students. Could you explain?

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Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#404

I have some sympathy for these kids. If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. Now I work mostly with PhDs who were at the top of every academic environment they've ever been in. And yet I can see their thinking skills rapidly declining as well; many of them can no longer brainstorm, code, think deeply, or write without…

We’re in a world where LLMs are basically going to be extensions of how we think. An additional thing we use to do a lot of thinking tasks.

As a piano player, it’s important to work hands separately. Sometimes your right hand will carry the melody and your left hand the harmony, sometimes vice versa. Sometimes there may be more than just two “voices”/melodies/lines between your two hands. Even as a very good (as in getting paid to do it) sight reader, I learn a lot working all the voices/melodic lines separately.

Singers do similar things like singing only the vowels to keep themselves in the right placement. Learning handstands, you have to work your wrists, rotator cuffs, core (which is many things), etc. separately. Yoga, Pilates, and running also help us learn to break problems down this way.

Anyway, all that to say: If LLMs are gonna be a natural extension of how we think, we need to understand what parts of problem-solving LLMs are good for, and what parts our brains are for. The nice thing about working these bits “separately” is that one side is done for us. So we just need to consciously practice using our brains.

As programmers that means, maybe we conscientiously practice writing things ourselves sometimes. Remembering that this even if this sacrifices short-term “velocity” (whose measurement is problematic, but I digress), it preserves our long-term ability to do good work. And I think any of the above physical/artistic practices (or countless others), worked in these ways, will help reinforce this entire mindset.

I think kids of the coming generation will be sharply divided on their ability to conscientiously practice things separately. It’s been happening, but I suspect LLMs will accelerate it unless how we actually teach kids can catch up.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#405

I have some sympathy for these kids. If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. Now I work mostly with PhDs who were at the top of every academic environment they've ever been in. And yet I can see their thinking skills rapidly declining as well; many of them can no longer brainstorm, code, think deeply, or write without…

I’m not noticing the decline in my own abilities any more than I had before using them. I finished undergrad 20 years ago and my once sharp math skills had been severely diminished within only 5-10 years. Just simple arithmetic and percentages that I could rapidly do in my head became dependent on calculators/spreadsheets. For all other trivia type knowledge, my brain has offloaded it to the internet RAM in my pocket…

I don't think it's just you or your age, per your pre-internet comment. People that grew up in this just don't understand why they're overwhelmed. And I don't think they're even aware of what their missing out on in terms of focus or mental acuity.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#406

>In addition, the guidelines state that “a typical GPA for a lower division course will fall in the range 2.8 – 3.3.” In spring 2026, both classes’ average grades were C-pluses, according to Berkeleytime, corresponding to a 2.3 GPA. As a Cal alum, I am actually really glad to see they are holding the line on grade inflation. I worked my butt off to achieve the GPA I did, and it would really suck to see my labor deval…

It won't last. You need a good grade to find work after so handing out lower grades decreases applications next year.

On the plus side, high grade + long ago remains a signal.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#407

I have some sympathy for these kids. If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. Now I work mostly with PhDs who were at the top of every academic environment they've ever been in. And yet I can see their thinking skills rapidly declining as well; many of them can no longer brainstorm, code, think deeply, or write without…

I’m not noticing the decline in my own abilities any more than I had before using them. I finished undergrad 20 years ago and my once sharp math skills had been severely diminished within only 5-10 years. Just simple arithmetic and percentages that I could rapidly do in my head became dependent on calculators/spreadsheets. For all other trivia type knowledge, my brain has offloaded it to the internet RAM in my pocket…

I too was and wanted to only blame communication overload. Especially with work the hardest thing in ai times seems to be the overload of stuff/shit to read that is too easy to write.

The reality is I agree with the op and I see the loss of reasoning power in myself. I've been using native Emacs on android for a bit and finally have gotten serious about config for it. I got lazy and had Claude do some of it. Which was great untill things don't work because there's not going to be my crazy ask in the data. It was painful for me to sit down and think through my configuration and the problem but I did it.

I am absolutely torn on the technology still two years after adopting it.

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#408
post #367

It’s not that they can’t think deeply, these are smart people. It’s that there is no reward for doing so and in fact there is punishment . The punishment is that for all the thinking you do, someone else will arrive at the same result as you in less time, or maybe even a better result. You don’t get rewarded for the effort of thinking, only for the end result. Naturally, even if you are an intelligent individual, you…

But you are rewarded for the effort: you're rewarded with knowledge. Whether or not you value that reward depends on the individual.

That's a fair point, and it gets into intrinsic vs extrinsic motivation. Problem is that nearly all students are conditioned to care about external motivators (GPA, parental expectations, etc..) instead of "the joy of learning".

Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#409

I have some sympathy for these kids. If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. Now I work mostly with PhDs who were at the top of every academic environment they've ever been in. And yet I can see their thinking skills rapidly declining as well; many of them can no longer brainstorm, code, think deeply, or write without…

I've got mixed feelings on AI assistance. I'll relate 2 anecdotes.

1 - When I was in grad school (before AI), we had to use Canvas for a class. One day, I got an obvious spam/phishing email in the internal Canvas system. It was so strange. The writer just would randomly hit the capslock button and keep typing away, no salutation, no signature, just a real mess. They were asking for a particular professor to come to their house to teach them about ... something? Again, real strange.

So, I email IT and say 'Hey, somehow a spammer got into the system, do your thing'.

They email back and go 'Nope, it's a student, that somehow managed to CC the entire system, sorry about that'.

Dear Reader, the message was pure garbage. Literally, it looked liked it was written by a 3rd grader without any shame. [0]

I happened to know the professor of the class. So later on, I talked with them over symposium coffee about it. They said that they remembered that particular email because of all the IT back and forth. It was for an upperdivision class in the Engineering department. The email itself was not particularly notable otherwise. In that, they saw such emails all the time, in terms of quality. This was a top 100 ranked (whatever that means) university, by the by.

Shocking.

2 - My grandfather was an officer and a mechanic for the USAF. A bit of an odd combo, but he was partly responsible for instituting many preventative maintenance checks and protocols, novel in those early days of the AF. His aptitude and memory were quite sharp for many mechanical things. Until the strokes from decades of smoking caught up, he could tell you exact measurements and torque values for a variety of airplane related things (I can no longer remember what exactly, the memory skills did not transfer to me).

I do vividly remember standing in that light blue garage of his and him all but yelling at me once. We were looking at the brakes on an old car he was 'restoring' (getting away from Grandma for a little bit). He pointed at the old drum brakes on the axel.

He asked me how tight the pads should be on the inner rim of it.

I had no idea.

So he asked where I might find out.

I figured I'd ask him.

But what if Grandpa wasn't there?

We'll I'd have to look it up somewhere (they had no internet).

Fantastic. Now, what about the next time you're working on the brakes?

Well, just make sure that the pads are at that spec.

And that when Grandpa hit me with the nugget of hard won wisdom: No, you look it up every time. Because these are brakes, and if you are wrong then they might fail, and they might fail when the driver has their whole family in the car at 100 mph. And then because you were lazy, half a dozen people die.

---

These two times stand in my head when it comes to AI.

For the first one, yes, AI would be such a boon to that very clearly struggling student reaching out for help. It would get them back on the path to the real struggle of getting their degree. That level of assistance would be like a wheelchair to a paraplegic.

For the second anecdote, AI is condemning people to death. Using it in life critical situations and care, letting it hallucinate or skip over critical values, that's a recipe for disaster.

Where do we set the fine line of using AI and not? For brakes and X-ray machines, obviously not. For helping kids learn to write emails correctly? Sure, sounds great.

Unfortunately, I feel the old adage about regulations is going to be true here like it is with every new technology: The rules are written in blood.

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Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes

#410

I have some sympathy for these kids. If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. Now I work mostly with PhDs who were at the top of every academic environment they've ever been in. And yet I can see their thinking skills rapidly declining as well; many of them can no longer brainstorm, code, think deeply, or write without…

You make good points here. But I want to point out some issues that I have with what you are saying, because I see a few assumptions that I would not myself make.

I graduated from RPI with a degree in Management and a concentration in Information Systems. I began in Computer Science, and didn't like it because RPI CS at the time was loaded with professors who were mathematicians who had transitioned over to CompSci and because the 100 and 200 level courses were excessively math-heavy in my view.

Since this was the late 80s, there may not have been an easy way to teach B.S.-level computing without it being heavily math-based, but I digress.

No matter what degree we achieved or what work we ended up succeeding at, we have a tendency to look back at people rising in the ranks below us, see differences in their experiences and struggles, and say, Look! That is evidence of a lack of rigor or a lack of understanding of fundamentals that we had to learn in order to succeed.

The only thing is that some of what we learned to become successful just isn't necessary to be learned when we learned it.

I do a fair amount of low-level software engineering with Claude Code now that was above my level of understanding of data structures and algorithms because I never took those CS courses at RPI because I switched to Management IT.

But as someone who could be described as a solopreneur at some level, my new system designs reach a certain level of complexity or code maturity, and I hit problems that I would not hit if I had more understanding of data structures and algorithms.

So-- I end up having to learn aspects of those disciplines at that point, rather than before I actually needed them.

I run into these situations often enough where I now say to myself, gee, I wish I had taken Data Structures. And I think, could I effectively take Data Structures at this late date and get better at specifying how I want data stored, or perhaps knowing the shortcomings of simplistic database structures that are the ones I end up with initially because of my lack of spec-writing skill?

Aren't many of the less experienced folks who come up now, whatever age they are, going to hit problems that show them their weaknesses in this fashion?

Is the issue that these people will never get jobs because the seniors and managers who are interviewing them will design interview questions that keep people with their level of understanding out of the workforce?

What happens when somebody who sucks at the fundamentals but is really motivated bangs their head against their shortcomings and eventually succeeds in building something that takes off? Aren't those people great assets because they learned some of their critical skills the hard way?

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