Long long back, when I was a kid even ball pens were banned because they screwed up handwriting. Just the same things in different ways.
Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes
371–380 of 828 posts
Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes
#372Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. You go to a university because you are deeply interested in understanding the subject that you study. Doing the homework and the tests are just the "goalposts" to check for yourself whether you made progress on this. So, as long as you are not under time pressure (which you in…
> You go to a university because you are deeply interested in understanding the subject that you study. This is a bit of a naive or maybe affluent take? Like, theoretically, I agree. And I myself was curious. But most people, by and large, are going to university because they know they need a degree to get a job, unlike their parents or grandparents. And even "the degree" is quickly becoming devalued in this current…
> > You go to a university because you are deeply interested in understanding the subject that you study.
> This is a bit of a naive or maybe affluent take?
Concerning the "naive" aspect, I wrote something at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48397759
Basically, this was really my lived experience, which might have been amplified that it was a decent university in a "boring" town where learning for your studies was one of the more exciting things that you could do.
Concerning the "affluent" aspect, I can clearly assure you that neither I am nor my parents were.
Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes
#373I have some sympathy for these kids. If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. Now I work mostly with PhDs who were at the top of every academic environment they've ever been in. And yet I can see their thinking skills rapidly declining as well; many of them can no longer brainstorm, code, think deeply, or write without…
> If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests.
As a counterpoint, I was once a physics grad student. I didn't finish the PhD because at some point I discovered that I was not going to be the next Richard Feynman and this was too much for my ego at the time. But I think that if LLMs were available, I might have finished.
Part of my problem was that at some point the math transitioned from stuff I understood to symbols and notation that I knew how to manipulate but didn't really understand. LLMs could have helped bridge that gap.
On the other hand, it's hard to imagine I wouldn't have used it for Jackson, etc. but we got Jackson solutions from previous students and the internet anyway. Using LLMs probably would have been more effective, used correctly.
Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes
#374Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. You go to a university because you are deeply interested in understanding the subject that you study. Doing the homework and the tests are just the "goalposts" to check for yourself whether you made progress on this. So, as long as you are not under time pressure (which you in…
> You go to a university because you are deeply interested in understanding the subject that you study. I don't think I've met anyone who fits that description. The ones deeply interested in the subject would likely skip college anyway if not for future economic prospects.
Then you either really haven't tried very hard to notice them or have been in an academic environment with severe defects.
Does college even work for future economic prospects, by the way?
Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes
#375Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You go to a university because you are deeply interested in understanding the subject that you study. This has not been true for something like 70 years now. People go to university because it is expected that that is what you do after high school.
> This has not been true for something like 70 years now. People go to university because it is expected that that is what you do after high school. In Germany, many people indeed say if you are not deeply into the topic that you study, you should rather get a vocational training (Ausbildung), or attend a different kind of tertiary education than a university such as - Fachhochschule - Berufsakademie (these words hav…
This situation is changing in the US but isn't well reported, in my opinion.
We haven't regained traditional apprenticeship roles (perhaps because we so weakened unions?) but 30 (of 50) States have free or heavily subsidized two-year community / vocational college programs. Affordable and accessible vocational education opportunities are increasingly present. I also think (very subjectively) that we are seeing a renewed respect for the trades.
However, there are structural headwinds outside of education - no national health insurance plan being a major one. Farming, fishing, forestry, construction and similar trades still have a 20-30% uninsured rate in the US. (The uninsured rate in white collar "professional" work is around 2.5%.)
Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes
#376Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You go to a university because you are deeply interested in understanding the subject that you study. This has not been true for something like 70 years now. People go to university because it is expected that that is what you do after high school.
It is really about time we thought about what universities are for in the 21st century, since there has been significant scope creep wrt labour markets, particularly roles which do not actually require university education but do require a degree for CV reasons. It is nonsense in the 21st century to require a bachelor's degree for such roles. Not to mention the huge societal pressure that you have mentioned, which no…
Universities today are seen as debt manufacturing facilities. Debt that cannot be discharged. AI is seen as an act of war against the world’s working classes. Rich people aren’t building bunkers in foreign countries and buying yachts the size of a town because we ran out of land in America. Buckle up for a wild tumultuous period of human history.
Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes
#377I have some sympathy for these kids. If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. Now I work mostly with PhDs who were at the top of every academic environment they've ever been in. And yet I can see their thinking skills rapidly declining as well; many of them can no longer brainstorm, code, think deeply, or write without…
> For adults the cognitive decline won't be as measurable since there's no exams, and overall output volume will still be fine due to LLM help
The leading indicator for me is the amount of emails and, god forbid, more personal messages (like birthday wishes!) I see that are obviously AI generated. It just keeps on rising. If you’re not able to dash off a quick message without the help of AI I have to assume you’re using it heavily elsewhere too.
I have sympathy for the university students too, we’re all bombarded with rhetoric about AI being the future. And I remember being incredibly nervous emailing my lecturer (am I phrasing this right? Is it respectful enough?) that I can imagine leaning on AI myself had it been available back in the day. But I’m glad it wasn’t, it’s an important skill to work out this stuff. They’re going to land an in person interview when they graduate and stumble around unable to effectively answer the questions they’re asked in real time.
Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes
#378Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If LLMs were around when I was a student, I would've also used them to "speed up" my homework assignments then proceed to fail all my tests. You go to a university because you are deeply interested in understanding the subject that you study. Doing the homework and the tests are just the "goalposts" to check for yourself whether you made progress on this. So, as long as you are not under time pressure (which you in…
> You go to a university because you are deeply interested in understanding the subject that you study. I don't think I've met anyone who fits that description. The ones deeply interested in the subject would likely skip college anyway if not for future economic prospects.
> The ones deeply interested in the subject would likely skip college anyway if not for future economic prospects.
There exist a lot of things that are much "easier" or even (currently) only possible to learn by attending a university because, for example,
- for the access to various devices and experts,
- you walk a much more "established" and "time-tested" hike for getting good in the subject,
etc.
Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes
#379It's a strange thing that as humans, we sleepwalk into every crisis, never agreeing on anything, and then when we're there, we also never agree on the causes. When we ge too the point where we can no longer "engineer" or "science" anything we will spend the next decade arguing that the issue was not really AI, or that if it was, it was inevitable and no one (or everyone) was to blame. Rinse, repeat. Yet we're here, today, looking at the bleak future, and taking yet another step forward.
Do we assume society just self regulates. I think it does, but the cost of letting it self regulate is really really high, with lots of suffering. Is it that we find this acceptable when there is a chance we won't be the first to feel the pain?
Re: Failing grades soar with AI usage, dwindling math skills in Berkeley CS classes
#380> “I’m a strong, strong opponent of what Harvard is doing to say that only a fraction of students can earn A’s,” Garcia said. “I think you should have clear standards for what an A means, and then give tons of opportunity for people … to get to that A bar without lowering the standard. So everybody who’s curving is hiding that effect. It’s completely hiding that effect, and it’s pretending as if nothing’s wrong, and…
But when there is no standard and students are subject to tests created by and graded by egotistical narcissists, a curve can be the only way anyone passes the course at all. It simply wouldn’t be acceptable for 5 of 50 students to pass because professor egghead can’t write coherent question on a test.
I had classes where I didn’t make over a 50% on any test and still got an A because half the class dropped and the other half hung on for the curve like I did.
I think curves are more a result of poor teachers than anything.