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U.S. to dismantle system tracking Atlantic currents that are at risk of collapse

e360.yale.edu

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Re: U.S. to dismantle system tracking Atlantic currents that are at risk of collapse

#161

Post by lovelearning »

efitz wrote: post #108

[flagged]

> I know nothing about Atlantic currents or this particular monitoring project

That's the problem.

> This article failed on any level to help me make an informed decision.

You shouldn't rely on just one article to make an "informed decision." Indeed, anyone who genuinely wants to make "informed decisions" must cultivate the habit of actively seeking out to be better informed rather than passively relying on a single article.

There's an entire chain of events that the links in this article lead to...

...The NSF is descoping.

...It's descoping because of federal funding cuts to science projects

...Federal funding cuts are due to the pro-fossil-fuel biases and climate change skepticism of the rightwing Trump admin and its backers. Their ideological strategy to redesign American society, Project 2025, specifically mentions disbanding this very monitoring project.

I was able to find that all out in about 15 minutes though I'm neither American nor reside there or anywhere close to it.

A performative pretense of informed decision making is not the same as genuinely making informed decisions.

Re: U.S. to dismantle system tracking Atlantic currents that are at risk of collapse

#162

Post by hattmall »

erickhill wrote: post #118
KnuthIsGod wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many million graduate students do you need to give the US the military hegemony and political influence over allies and adversaries that the F-35 program provides ? Looked at from a policy maker's viewpoint, things look very different.

Wouldn't take very many at all, we've now learned these past four years (and even the past 2 months). All you need are drones, that are pennies on the dollar cheaper than trillion-dollar militaries. Depending on the munition, a single bomb we drop on Iran could cost between $40,000 and a couple million dollars. Think of all the high-end drones you could buy instead. Everything is changing. Including our influence.

That isn't really accurate, small drones are enough to antagonize regional neighbors. They are far from being able to project influence, stabilize international trade, or even remotely protect a territory from an enemy that isn't concerned with civilian casualties.

Re: U.S. to dismantle system tracking Atlantic currents that are at risk of collapse

#163

Post by mothballed »

mindslight wrote: post #136
mothballed wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely you're not proposing it is uncapturable economic value. That's not economics. As for the mechanics, first we have to hear what they were thinking about the substance of that value was. That's not my assertion, but rather the question posed by the persons I was replying too -- but virtually by definition economics involves the topic of capturable valuable. If it is not capturable value then I don't see how it's…

Un-centrally-captureable value that remains distributed is very much economic value. You seem to be falling for the efficient market fallacy.

If it's actually usable economically then the government will partially recover (capture value) it via taxation. If US suppliers fail to match the predicted effects, then Chinese or other suppliers can. This yields tax receipts in China and elsewhere. So if it's actually 'distributable' then it is worth at least some non-zero capturable amount as sales to foreign governments if the US government will not be participating, even if you suppose no private entities will buy the information.

Re: U.S. to dismantle system tracking Atlantic currents that are at risk of collapse

#164

Post by x-complexity »

armada651 wrote: post #158
x-complexity wrote: post #152

> ... “removal of all in-water infrastructure” belonging to the Ocean Observatories Initiative at sites along the coasts of Oregon, Washington, Alaska, and North Carolina, and in the waters between Greenland and Iceland. ...Why is Europe reliant on the US for monitoring oceans between Greenland & Iceland, i.e within European territory & therefore European monitoring? Shouldn't they have their own infra to work from?

That stretch of ocean is closer to Canada than it is to mainland Europe.

All the more reason as to why it should be Canada monitoring that portion of the ocean.

Re: U.S. to dismantle system tracking Atlantic currents that are at risk of collapse

#165

Post by armada651 »

iqp wrote: post #110

10 years from now: Climate Activist: The oceans are getting warmer & global currents are threatened by imminent collapse - we must do something! Big Oil: Prove it! Climate Activist: Data gathered between 2016 and 2026 shows ... Big Oil: That's old news! Do you have more recent data? Climate Activist: Well, no, because Trump2 dismantled the ocean observation system in 2026 ... Big Oil: So you have no data to back up y…

It's mostly just about getting the data out of the news cycle. If you don't have new data on the oceans warming then there's no news story, so less pressure on Big Oil to greenwash their industry.

Re: U.S. to dismantle system tracking Atlantic currents that are at risk of collapse

#166

Post by andrewflnr »

mothballed wrote: post #56
mbgerring wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you think of any economically valuable reason why it might be important to know about weather trends or events in advance? Any at all?

[flagged]

Are you not aware of any instances where "evil capitalist bastards" fail to act in their own long term interest? If not, then you might want to pay more attention.

Re: U.S. to dismantle system tracking Atlantic currents that are at risk of collapse

#167

Post by aaron695 »

tdb7893 wrote: post #75

What really puts all of this into perspective for me is I work in academia and one of my friends works for a defense contractor. He told me the maintenance cost per flight hour of F-35 was a bit more than $40k, which is significantly more than I make in a year as a grad student. It's crazy basic science is what's been the focus of so many cuts while it's so cheap.

[dead]

Re: U.S. to dismantle system tracking Atlantic currents that are at risk of collapse

#168

Post by zmgsabst »

tdb7893 wrote: post #75

What really puts all of this into perspective for me is I work in academia and one of my friends works for a defense contractor. He told me the maintenance cost per flight hour of F-35 was a bit more than $40k, which is significantly more than I make in a year as a grad student. It's crazy basic science is what's been the focus of so many cuts while it's so cheap.

I’m sure this has nothing to do with 3.1 million graduate students versus 500 F-35s.

For actual context, F-35 program receives $9B per year (amortized over lifetime), which is $3000 per year per graduate student. Erasing the F-35 program entirely would make something like a 10% difference in graduate wages, while destroying the US Air Force as a modern military.

So no — your request to fund graduate students is more expensive than the F-35 program and delivers at best marginal results.

When you math through per unit or per capita or per year, we already spend more on education and science than the military — and it’s unclear further science funding to the detriment of the military would improve things.

I understand why you want more money, though.

Re: U.S. to dismantle system tracking Atlantic currents that are at risk of collapse

#169

Post by js2 »

Here's a frankly better article from the NYT:

https://www.nytimes.com/2026/06/01/climate/ocean-observatori...

A few points:

1. The ocean observation system began operating in 2016 and was expected to continue for 25 years.

2. It cost $48 million annually to operate the network. The Trump administration repeatedly tried to shutter it, proposing to cut its funding by 80 percent in both 2025 and again in 2026. Congress pushed back, restoring the money.

3. “One of the real tragedies here is that collecting data effectively at this site was a huge engineering challenge, and it’s not the kind of thing where you can just leave your notes for the next person who comes in,” Dr. Palevsky said. “There’s a lot of expertise that has the potential to be lost.”

The administration is, as I understand it, in violation of the constitution by shutting this down. It was funded by Congress, twice. The executive branch cannot just legally not spend that money.

Re: U.S. to dismantle system tracking Atlantic currents that are at risk of collapse

#170

Post by kxrm »

tombert wrote: post #140
opsnooperfax wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think blue team good, red team bad is a very mature take on US politics. When it comes to substantive policy, voters do not get a choice. The same wars will be fought. The same lobbies will have their way. Just because one side will make tactless, self-deifying inaugural speeches about how the sea levels will cease to rise and the Earth will start to heal, that does not make it so. I think that if these senso…

Yeah, no, it actually is mature enough. I hate divisive language like this, but Trump's only major concrete "policy" (if you can call it that) during his 2024 campaign was that he was going to somehow lower grocery prices by instituting tariffs, so basically "I'm going to lower prices by raising prices". That kind of idiotic quasi-doublespeak should have been a disqualifier for anyone with at least a two-digit IQ, bu…

> People actually believed the idiotic notion that "other countries" pay the tariffs.

Many believed this, think about how many Americans do not understand the Progressive Tax system. I believe it has been intentional for many years to keep up some of these misunderstanding of basic governance.

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