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Squillions: How money laundering won

lrb.co.uk

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Re: Squillions: How money laundering won

#61
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That wouldn't help in the situations described in the article. For example where individuals buy drugs with small amounts of cash, then that cash is used to buy things like luxury watches and iphones, then those items are taken overseas and sold. Seemingly the only effective way to solve this would be to ban purchasing highly resellable items with cash and requiring that cash to be deposited in to the system first.

In Italy, it’s illegal to pay in cash anything over 5000 euros

Ok, but 5 smurfs buying 5 €4999.99 watches is still €25k

Re: Squillions: How money laundering won

#62

First off, money laundering does not require cash. So the premise is a bit strange. Second, I submit that money laundering should not be considered a crime at all. Monitoring it (for example, banks required to report large cash transactions to the government) just leads to mass surveillance of innocent people. Transferring money from A to B - why should that be a crime? The point of anti-money-laundering laws is that…

AML laws enforce monitoring so that legitimate businesses have to block or report activity, assisting law enforcement in tracing said criminal activity. It's the most effective way. As the famous saying goes: follow the money.

You're correct on the privacy implications. It's shocking how much data AML monitoring companies have collected about you, there's more data points than any single person could think up. These aren't entities owned by the government - they're private companies.

Also yes money laundering does not require cash but I think the author is highlighting the scale of it. Most countries tax consumption a.k.a VAT and 'hidden transactions' such as cash transactions bypass that.

You can be anti-anti-money-laundering but then you also either have to be a complete anarchist or completely anti-taxation and anti-data-collection by corporations and yet still have a reasonable argument for how this will result in the ability for society to have a government.

I'm not saying the system is perfect - far from any means. However the utopia you describe seems infeasible to me.

Re: Squillions: How money laundering won

#63

Here's an anecdotal thought: AML laws surprisingly work well to discourage offline transactions by tax-paying citizens, helping maximize tax reporting and improve tax collection. As a result, governments continue to strengthen and expand laws in that direction.

It used to be super common for many small businesses to be cash only or a 10% discount for cash. Likely the main driver for this was tax avoidance. I haven't seen a cash only business since covid. With a dwindling number of legitimate cash users, any business that is pulling in huge sums of cash well beyond the average is going to look increasingly suspicious.

> Likely the main driver for this was tax avoidance.

It's not just that, though. It's common here in France for credit card operators to have fees in the 5-10% range (or 0.30€ per operation + 2% of the amount). That's why you often see signs « card accepted above 10€ », and that's why your local shop will probably not mind if you're missing 10 cents when paying cash.

Re: Squillions: How money laundering won

#64

In Italy there is a very aggressive law against money laundering: if you withdraw more than 1k cash, it triggers a call to the police. I know it's the same if you do it over multiple days. I think it has been relaxed a little bit later on, but in Italy everybody does the "I'll charge you X less without VAT" (which is 23% in Italy, I should point out), so this is also fighting that.

[deleted]

Re: Squillions: How money laundering won

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It used to be super common for many small businesses to be cash only or a 10% discount for cash. Likely the main driver for this was tax avoidance. I haven't seen a cash only business since covid. With a dwindling number of legitimate cash users, any business that is pulling in huge sums of cash well beyond the average is going to look increasingly suspicious.

> Likely the main driver for this was tax avoidance. It's not just that, though. It's common here in France for credit card operators to have fees in the 5-10% range (or 0.30€ per operation + 2% of the amount). That's why you often see signs « card accepted above 10€ », and that's why your local shop will probably not mind if you're missing 10 cents when paying cash.

> It's common here in France for credit card operators to have fees in the 5-10% range (or 0.30€ per operation + 2% of the amount)

Interchange in the EU is capped at 0.4% for credit cards. Typical costs for processing are much lower than 5-10%.

For example, Adyen charges the 0.4% interchange + their fee of 0.6% and a flat 0.11€. On a 10€ transaction, that's 2.1%.

In most cases this is cheaper than handling cash. When you accept cash, you have to pay somebody to close and reconcile the drawer, take the cash to the bank (or have a security company do it for you), account for shrinkage / mistakes...it's a bit of a myth that cash is cheaper for businesses to handle, especially in places like the EU where card interchange rates are highly regulated.

Now of course, if your cash is not going the usual routes and isn't getting accounted for in the books...that equation can change.

Re: Squillions: How money laundering won

#66
I learned a lot about the AML system many years ago and still have some books about how it works on my bookshelf. It's fascinating stuff.

A few minor comments.

My wife and I have owned and used 1000 CHF notes quite a few times in the past. The last two times we moved apartments I paid part of the moving fee with a 1000 CHF note. We've also bought furniture this way. Nobody was surprised to see this and the notes were accepted without question or comment. To a person who spent their life in Britain this sounds absurd because the British government has - true to form - been trying to wipe cash out for many years to improve surveillance. You can't get any high value notes there, they just don't exist, because the state assumes that anything it can't see must automatically be suspicious. And there's so much street crime, and the police care so little about burglary, it would be very dangerous to hold such notes. But in Switzerland it's safe and the government doesn't try to wipe cash out, so paying with high value notes is common. (Although bank notes are in no way as private as people assume and can be tracked quite well, because they don't tend to circulate far.) This situation makes a mockery of the recommendation to fight crime by removing high value bank notes. The UK did this already and ML is out of control there: criminals just don't care.

I looked into the case of George Cottrell once. The case against Cottrell collapsed because it was founded on entrapment (the eight months was a plea deal in the usual American fashion, and doesn't mean much). It boiled down to undercover FBI agents asking Cottrell, "how could we launder money" and he explained how to do it, in the way anyone familiar with the topic could. He didn't make any offers to actually do it, didn't do it, and that's why "could be jailed for up to 20 years" turned into an eight month plea bargain to let prosecutors save face. Then after he was released he trolled US LE by writing a book called "How to launder money". Usually not given is the subtitle: "A guide for law enforcement and politicians". It's not written for criminals but people love to omit that detail.

Carousel fraud in the EU is a huge problem that governments hate to talk about because they don't know how to fix it and fear that by talking about it, they'll just teach more people how to do it. It's an infinite money glitch but in the real world. It's interesting that the UK thinks they solved it. I suspect they didn't, rather, enforcement collapsed elsewhere and it became easier to just go back to other ways of scamming the government.

Re: Squillions: How money laundering won

#67
The true crime is involving a multinational corporation in a transaction between two private individuals at the local market.

I like cash because it's direct, and where possible I avoid paying by card because I don't want the merchant to pay fees to third parties.

In Europe, most of the time, using cash doesn't imply avoiding taxes on the transaction, but having cash is essentially sovereignty.

Re: Squillions: How money laundering won

#68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It used to be super common for many small businesses to be cash only or a 10% discount for cash. Likely the main driver for this was tax avoidance. I haven't seen a cash only business since covid. With a dwindling number of legitimate cash users, any business that is pulling in huge sums of cash well beyond the average is going to look increasingly suspicious.

I've mainly seen it in small businesses - e.g. food vendors - but instead they charge extra for using electronic payment methods. Also to offset the costs they're making on offering it I suspect, but it does encourage people to pay with cash.

> but instead they charge extra for using electronic payment methods.

That is illegal in the UK. That is why many trades people here will accept bank transfers but not cards.

Re: Squillions: How money laundering won

#69

I learned a lot about the AML system many years ago and still have some books about how it works on my bookshelf. It's fascinating stuff. A few minor comments. My wife and I have owned and used 1000 CHF notes quite a few times in the past. The last two times we moved apartments I paid part of the moving fee with a 1000 CHF note. We've also bought furniture this way. Nobody was surprised to see this and the notes were…

I'm not suprised that in the swiss economy no one bats an eye at 1000 CHF bank notes. After all the swiss are historically known for being the classy alternative to launder and store your ill gotten gains from, for example, your stint as the dictator of an African country.

But there has been some changes in recent years so I don't know how it is today.

Re: Squillions: How money laundering won

#70

Here's an anecdotal thought: AML laws surprisingly work well to discourage offline transactions by tax-paying citizens, helping maximize tax reporting and improve tax collection. As a result, governments continue to strengthen and expand laws in that direction.

> As a result, governments continue to strengthen and expand laws in that direction.

Which creates national security and sovereignty issues. Cash is robust and decentralised. There is a good reason Sweden went from pushing cashless to advising people to keep cash at home for emergencies, and were at least considering an obligation to accept cash for small transactions.

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