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It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

jeffgeerling.com

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Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#271

Post by dijit »

embedding-shape wrote: post #245
fortran77 wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love Windows Arm. My latest machine, an Asus Zenbook A16 is great. 18 core Snapdragon X2 extreme, 48 GB of memory, and OLED screen--all for $1699. It feels very fast, faster than my 24-core Xeon desktop (though benchmarks would put my Xeon ahead) and has great "all-day" battery life. You can remove the screws on the bottom and replace the battery (which is screwed in, too, no glue to peel) or the M.2 NVME which is…

You should try Linux on it someday, to really see what the CPU can do, night and day difference :) With that said, I'd probably prefer a Windows laptop over a MacBook too, their hardware is great, but the software is just so awful. But whatever you do, don't get Microsoft's hardware, I got a Surface Pro 8 some years ago and throughout my ~25 years of computing I've never had a worse laptop, and just 2-3 weeks after t…

last time I tried Linux on ARM (a month ago) nothing worked.

No sound, no webcam, no USB-C(iirc) and no video hardware acceleration.

It was a Thinkpad T14s with Snapdragon Elite X-2 if it matters.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#272

Post by kvuj »

trouve_search wrote: post #232
cardanome wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is all true but even as a hardcore Linux and Thinkpad user, I have to admit it is a hard sell when no one can offer the quality of Apple. Apple is the only hardware company where you can buy a product and it is good hardware wise. Sure other companies have flagship offerings but with apple you get a really good base model. And that is where it breaks down for me. Pay 20% more for freedom? Yes, absolutely. But pa…

I've been using an asus zenbook 14 OLED with linux. Compatibility is great. The screen blows apple out completely. It's clearly, obviously better. The fan noise and battery life are worse than Apple. The keyboard feels better to type on, the trackpad is slightly worse, but not enough to annoy me. The new Pop OS cosmic is a very fun OS concept for laptops with the autotiling workspaces as a fundamental primitive.

From a quick search online, the max brightness of your laptop is 400 nits SDR and 500 HDR. My M5 MacBook Pro is 1000 and 1500 nits.

Screen brightness is not something I will compromise on after having a taste of greatness.

I personally wouldn't mind spending 30-40% more for a Linux laptop with similar qualities + repairability. But I will not settle for something much more expensive and worst in some aspects.

There are also arguments agains repairability in Framework's laptop. I did the calculations and for the Framework 16, it would be cheaper to buy a gaming Asus laptop and throw it out in a couple years to replace it versus buying a framework and upgrading it. Utter insanity.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#273

Post by kamranjon »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #140
benoau wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every generation of Mac has its own requirements that Asahi has to support through a painstaking process of reverse-engineering, so it lags behind quite a bit. Realistically it will probably be 2030 before you can use it on any current-generation Mac.

It's irritating to see it constantly recommended as a real option.

I believe it's what Linus Torvalds uses.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#274

Post by pdimitar »

trouve_search wrote: post #232
cardanome wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is all true but even as a hardcore Linux and Thinkpad user, I have to admit it is a hard sell when no one can offer the quality of Apple. Apple is the only hardware company where you can buy a product and it is good hardware wise. Sure other companies have flagship offerings but with apple you get a really good base model. And that is where it breaks down for me. Pay 20% more for freedom? Yes, absolutely. But pa…

I've been using an asus zenbook 14 OLED with linux. Compatibility is great. The screen blows apple out completely. It's clearly, obviously better. The fan noise and battery life are worse than Apple. The keyboard feels better to type on, the trackpad is slightly worse, but not enough to annoy me. The new Pop OS cosmic is a very fun OS concept for laptops with the autotiling workspaces as a fundamental primitive.

Is the fan turning on often? Is it very loud?

From my research on Macbook alternatives only the Zenbooks looked like almost-an-even-match to me. Curious what's your experience with day-to-day fan noise and heat.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#275

Post by hamdingers »

Rebelgecko wrote: post #173
866-RON-0-FEZ wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

M-series MacBooks stink, literally. [1] My newest MacBook reeks of strong adhesive from the vents. Googling revealed hundreds of similar complaints, it's allegedly a solvent they use, perhaps flux. I thought it was the battery. Many claim "they all smell like that". Some (insane) people like the smell, I assume they sniffed glue as kids. Unfortunately it's the last one I buy. I won't tolerate a smelly laptop. [1] htt…

Can you compare/contrast with the steam deck vent smell?

On an M4 Macbook Pro it's mild and faintly sweet but not really pleasant the way the LCD deck is. Requires a lot of heat for a long time to become noticeable. Vent is less convenient for sniffing.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#276

Post by m463 »

This is a values misalignment. Or a purchaser misalignment.

Corvette is a much better performer than a Toyota pickup because it is has better performance and weighs 100 lbs less.

on the other hand, how much would a macbook neo with 48gb of memory and 2tb of ssd work out?

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#277

Post by kybernetikos »

I'm not sure that there's a lot of overlap between the target markets. Most schools near me require windows and require a stylus capable touch screen, so the mac is out of the running immediately.

Even if it weren't, the fact that if you're giving a computer to a teen as their first machine to take to class and use every single day, you really, really, really want to be able to separately repair the screen and the ports.

As always, you're paying a premium for the repairability, but if your teen cracks the screen a single time in three years of carrying it to class every day, then you've already saved money.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#278

Post by porphyra »

Dell just announced an XPS 13 that is $699 (with a $599 education pricing) and fairly nice CNC machined body (1 kg) and nice screen (2560x1600 30-120 Hz 500 nit 100% DCI-P3). That could be a tempting alternative to the Macbook Neo for people who don't want to use macOS. Unfortunately for the Framework, it is no longer competitive even with other PC laptops.

https://videocardz.com/newz/dell-unveils-xps-13-its-lightest...

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#279

Post by taude »

tobinfricke wrote: post #119
whimblepop wrote: post #83

I was seduced by Apple Silicon after experiencing the exceptional battery life and performance. Those things are great, as are the screens and the speakers. But I'm still excited about the Framework 12 because I don't love macOS. I don't need an alternative to beat Apple on every line of the spec sheet. I just need them to align with my values, support Linux well, and cross a certain "good enough" threshold. The late…

Is it feasible to run Linux on the Apple hardware? Seems like that could meet your requirements, except possibly "align with my values." I saw https://asahilinux.org/ but don't know how usable it is, or whether the long battery life and hardware support is preserved.

i've tried getting linux to run on a 2018 MB Pro (intel/nvidia based). Even after a ton of research and installing a couple "compatible-ish" distros, I couldn't get it to work, and gave up. And then further reading suggested I was always going to live with a semi-bricked machine. I just wanted a simple writing and couch surfing laptop. But the version of MacOs running on that old hardware is so slugish, it's painful.

Re: It's hard to justify buying a Framework 12

#280

Post by AnthonyMouse »

LarsDu88 wrote: post #70

What Framework is trying to do feels like something that would've made more sense 10 years ago. And the reason for that is b/c of Moore's Law approaching its end. The way to manufacture more efficient compute now is do things like put DRAM closer to the chip and even closer integration between CPU and GPU. The fact that Apple can co-design their silicon such that the CPU and GPU can pull from the same pooled RAM is a…

> The way to manufacture more efficient compute now is do things like put DRAM closer to the chip and even closer integration between CPU and GPU.

People have been hyping things like this for decades, but then it turns out the number of applications that need to frequently share data between a CPU and GPU at a faster speed than PCIe can handle are pretty uncommon. Meanwhile putting them closer together has some pretty significant real disadvantages, because then you're trying to deliver more power and dissipate more heat over a smaller area instead of putting more physical separation between the two largest loads in the machine.

Notice that high end PC GPUs are significantly faster than any of Apple's integrated GPUs, and that's why.

> There are also latency and bandwidth benefits how they setup their RAM just from pure physics.

Soldering RAM has a modest latency advantage over SODIMMs at the most extreme timings and CAMM turns even that into basically nothing.

> And chip manufacturing is moving towards chiplets where you have cores manufactured separately and then wired together at nanoscale level on top of a silicon interposer.

You're describing a move to less integration. They were originally on the same die, and the change has no real effect on modularity. The user doesn't even have to know that some Ryzen CPUs have a separate I/O die or more than one compute die, they all still fit into the same socket and are even interchangeable with the ones that have only a single die.

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