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Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

latimes.com

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Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#211

Post by nathan_compton »

layer8 wrote: post #118
snazz wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No matter how you restrict it with MDM profiles, it’s distracting compared to pencil/paper.

Can’t it run restricted to a single application in kiosk mode? Unless the application itself provides distraction, what would be distracting?

I friend of mine once made an observation that really stuck with me: a kindle is not a book: it is simultaneously all books at once. If you lock it to a single book, its still all books at once, but with a lock on all the others. Also, why not use paper?

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#212

Post by JCTheDenthog »

ceejayoz wrote: post #156
JCTheDenthog wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't say it was fair, I was pointing out the NYT being racially biased (as per usual). Imagine at a school that Jenny gets 10 cookies from the teacher, Timmy gets 3, and Johnny gets two. Billy sees all this, but he has a crush on Jenny, so when he tells everyone on the playground about it he doesn't say "Jenny got way more cookies than Johnny, that's so unfair!" Instead he says "Timmy got more cookies than Johnny…

> I was pointing out the NYT being racially biased But we apparently agree that "somehow found a way to describe this as an unfair advantage for White students" is actually accurate on their part? (The article also openly explains why, if you go past the headline a bit.) > It was never intended to? Then we shouldn't use it as such.

>But we apparently agree that "somehow found a way to describe this as an unfair advantage for White students" is actually accurate on their part?

I agree that Whites also got an unfair advantage over Asians in college admissions, yes (I haven't kept up with the state of things since some recentish supreme court decisions so I don't know if this is actually still the case).

>Then we shouldn't use it as such.

It isn't used as such. It's used to measure a student's current aptitude in math and English, hence the discontinuation of its use in California leading to the poor math outcomes for students described in the article this entire thread is about.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#213

Post by nathan_compton »

koolba wrote: post #122
kleiba2 wrote: post #28

I used to teach high school math. There was a big push for doing everything digitally. And admittedly, for some topics the use of technology in the classroom or at home can really be a benefit, for instance visualizations or interactive exercises. But having a digital device in class was the number one cause of distraction every time. For a lot of things, good old blackboards are just fine as are pen + paper exercise…

They got rid of paper because teachers are lazy and do not want to spend time grading things by hand. I’ve spoken to the head of curriculum at a school asking why when given the choice of paper or digital format of a math exam, they picked the digital. I specifically mentioned it’d be inferior as students would not be able to draw atop geometry problems or cross out numbers when simplifying expressions. The response…

I don't think anyone with a lazy disposition would get into teaching. There are so many other jobs that pay better and involve less work.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#214

Post by kubb »

hedora wrote: post #53

This doesn't surprise me at all. From what I can tell, California's education system has moved from "equality" (which I would define as providing similar opportunities to all the kids) to focusing on "equity" (which I think they define as dictating the same outcome for all kids). To get an idea of how off the rails this has gotten, go read up on their statements trying to justify banning high school calculus. They ex…

Why do you even need higher education if you can brain drain educated people from India?

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#215

Post by doubled112 »

bix6 wrote: post #167
mlsu wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s definitely actively bad to involve a device in the vast majority of education. And, it’s a purely selfish thing by tech companies to insert themselves into education. A student should not see a computer until college or vocational school unless they are taking e.g a high school programming or electronics class.

I learned typing in 3rd grade iirc. That seems reasonable for a fundamental skill.

My kids are in grade 3 and 6 and nobody ever taught them to type. They just handed them a Chromebook and assumed they know what they're doing.

It is a skill, but everybody seems to think it will just happen on its own.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#216

Post by SoftTalker »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #124
zdragnar wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do they not have remedial classes for these students? It's been more than 20 years, but back in my day, if you weren't ready for entry level classes (but still got in to university) you took remedial classes first.

The processes for delivering remedial classes no longer work at the scale required. UC San Diego published a detailed report of what's happening at their campus ( https://senate.ucsd.edu/media/740347/sawg-report-on-admissio... ): their remedial math placement grew from 32 students in 2020 to 921 students in 2025, 665 of whom placed into an extra-remedial course covering grade 1-8 math which had not previously been ne…

> 32 students in 2020 to 921 students in 2025

Seems easy to explain, high schoolers were not in school from 2020-2022 in most areas, so they were two or three years behind in everything when they got to college.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#217

Post by randusername »

> We now observe preparation gaps so severe that instructors must reteach middle-school mathematics while simultaneously teaching the material students need for sciences, engineering, economics, and other quantitatively demanding fields

I was annoyed to not find specifics. I would be surprised if the K12 school board and university STEM professors are in agreement about what middle school mathematics is.

Trig comes to mind as a common stumbling block. I could be forgetting, but I don't recall much of it on the SAT. If I had to pick one area of math where the gap between learning something initially and actually being shown its broader applicability is the longest, it would be that. Like a decade between SOHCAHTOA and diffeq / fourier probably.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#218

Post by valleyer »

xhkkffbf wrote: post #160
BigTTYGothGF wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> tons of professional athletes come from poverty Is that actually the case?

Read up on Kobe Bryant or Bronny James.

Sure, those are some good counterexamples: both sons of professional athletes. And there are plenty of others.

On the other hand, we have: Allen Iverson, Larry Bird, Shaquille O'Neal, Carmelo Anthony, Michael Vick, Bo Jackson, Jackie Robinson, Babe Ruth, Mickey Mantle, Fernando Valenzuela, Albert Pujols, Jim Thorpe, ...

Oh, and LeBron James himself!

So my view is that people of both rich and poor upbringings have a good chance in the sports world these days, at least for those sports where the necessary gear is relatively cheap.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#219

Post by Catloafdev »

hedora wrote: post #53

This doesn't surprise me at all. From what I can tell, California's education system has moved from "equality" (which I would define as providing similar opportunities to all the kids) to focusing on "equity" (which I think they define as dictating the same outcome for all kids). To get an idea of how off the rails this has gotten, go read up on their statements trying to justify banning high school calculus. They ex…

This is absurdly problematic. Your solution is basically handicapping the schools with kids that perform worse and then potentially closing them? That doesn't solve the problem, this is just pro-Charter School propaganda that ignores the real-world effects of these positions. You've identified a real issue with the 'equality' vs 'equity' concept, that doesn't lead to 'Close public schools and switch everything to Charter schools', that's an absurd conclusion.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#220

Post by z3c0 »

avidiax wrote: post #184
pseudalopex wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They defined equity as Fair outcomes, treatment, and opportunities for all students.[1] [1] https://www.cde.ca.gov/qs/ea/

What is a "fair" outcome? Is it easier to hold back talented students with a low bar or push untalented ones to a higher bar?

The conundrum of "equality of outcome" vs "equality of opportunity" hinges on that core question. It's weird, and possible contradictory, to see a policy claiming to attempt both.

Most would define a "fair" opportunity as everyone getting the same chances to succeed, but a "fair" outcome would segment on merit. If angling towards fair outcomes, there's usually less uproar over lifting the floor (e.g financial aid), versus lowering the ceiling (e.g. limitations on admissions based on ethnic or financial background).

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