Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM • Hacker News Board

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#41

Post by JCTheDenthog » Thu, May 28, 2026, 2:39 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #25

valleyer wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From your link: > Equity is equality of outcome for all subgroups in society.

Also from my link: > factors specific to one's personal conditions should not interfere with the potential of academic success

Sure, but the reality is that such conditions do interfere with the potential of academic success, as much as proponents of equity like to argue otherwise. If I had a severe brain injury as a child, or my mom drank and did a ton of drugs while pregnant with me, or any number of other reasons, I will probably be far less academically successful than in the counterfactual reality where I didn't get a brick dropped on my head as a child.

Equality proponents argue that brick-on-head and no-brick-on-head should be judged by the same standards. Equity proponents argue that brick-on-head should be given advantages over no-brick-on-head to make them obtain substantially similar educational outcomes.

Once again, from your own link:

>Equity recognizes this uneven playing field and aims to take extra measures by giving those in need more than those who are not. Equity aims to achieve equal outcomes for groups, also called substantive equality. Equity aims to ensure that everyone's lifestyle is equal, even if that requires unequal distribution of access and goods.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#42

Post by raincole » Thu, May 28, 2026, 2:39 PM UTC

eunos wrote: post #32

StateflowsLabs wrote: post #2

"The surge in math deficiencies after dropping the SAT highlights a systemic issue: grade inflation. Without a standardized baseline like the SAT/ACT, a 4.0 GPA from a high school with relaxed standards looks identical to a 4.0 from a highly rigorous one. Paradoxically, removing test requirements harms underprivileged students the most. Preparing for the SAT requires a book and an internet connection. In contrast, bu…

And SAT as high school math exam itself I think is way too easy. They should design another test which can clearly distinguish top 1% or even 0.1%.from others

There are already such tests. They're called International ___ Olympiad.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#43

Post by [deleted] » Thu, May 28, 2026, 2:39 PM UTC

john_strinlai wrote: post #3

> “We now observe preparation gaps so severe that instructors must reteach middle-school mathematics while simultaneously teaching the material students need for sciences, engineering, economics, and other quantitatively demanding fields,” they warned. i dont understand why the teachers would go out of their way to reteach middle-school math. i teach. my courses have prerequisites. if a student somehow makes it into…

[deleted]

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#44

Post by btilly » Thu, May 28, 2026, 2:39 PM UTC

john_strinlai wrote: post #8

ceejayoz wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Professors who fail large swathes of their classes get in trouble.

professors who don't/can't cover their curriculum also get in trouble. if i had to dedicate half of my classes to reteaching things the students are required to know before taking my class, i would not cover what i am supposed to, which then has a knock-on effect to the classes that my class is a prereq for. whenever i have had a larger-than-normal percent of my students failing, i am provided an opportunity to expla…

When we are put into a catch-22 situation, we should not expect sympathy from the ones who created the catch-22 situation.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#45

Post by jdw64 » Thu, May 28, 2026, 2:39 PM UTC

Looking at the world, it seems we all go through similar systemic issues. Naturally, in East Asian cultures where the fervor for education is overheated, this phenomenon tended to manifest much earlier.

When specific exams are abolished or watered down under the banner of 'diversity and equal opportunity,' the wealthy actually gain a massive advantage. Of course, the exam system itself inherently favors the rich as well.

The reason is simple: weakening exams naturally forces the strengthening of alternative metrics. During the transition period when a new system is introduced to society, wealthy parents are far better equipped to adapt than poorer ones.

Korea’s 'Spoon Class Theory' (where rich parents are gold spoons and poor parents are dirt spoons) and Japan’s 'Parent Gacha' (parent lottery) stem from this exact dynamic.

Sure, standardized testing benefits the wealthy because they can hire top-tier tutors. However, when the rules of the system change entirely, the underprivileged simply do not have the buffer or resources to keep up with the shift.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#46

Post by criddell » Thu, May 28, 2026, 2:40 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #11

StateflowsLabs wrote: post #2

"The surge in math deficiencies after dropping the SAT highlights a systemic issue: grade inflation. Without a standardized baseline like the SAT/ACT, a 4.0 GPA from a high school with relaxed standards looks identical to a 4.0 from a highly rigorous one. Paradoxically, removing test requirements harms underprivileged students the most. Preparing for the SAT requires a book and an internet connection. In contrast, bu…

> Preparing for the SAT requires a book and an internet connection. Sports frequently just requires a ball or a place to run. In both scenarios, you can still purchase better equipment/training. There are very expensive, effective SAT prep options out there for the wealthy.

My kids were able to take some SAT test prep course through their school (partially funded by the PTA) and it helped a lot. They wrote a bunch of practice exams and each time their scores went up. Also, test taking itself is a skill and the more you practice it the better you get at it. If you’ve written the SAT 15 times over the past 2 years, then the 16th time won’t be as stressful and you will know strategies that work and the questions will be familiar.

If you are in a school that doesn’t have a well funded PTA, you are at a disadvantage.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#47

Post by fabian2k » Thu, May 28, 2026, 2:40 PM UTC

john_strinlai wrote: post #3

> “We now observe preparation gaps so severe that instructors must reteach middle-school mathematics while simultaneously teaching the material students need for sciences, engineering, economics, and other quantitatively demanding fields,” they warned. i dont understand why the teachers would go out of their way to reteach middle-school math. i teach. my courses have prerequisites. if a student somehow makes it into…

It's a different country and a different time, but when I studied (a natural science) there were dedicated courses at the start for refreshing high school math. Those were optional, and covered relatively simple topics.

There was also a real math lecture that went into topics above high school math, but also contained some repetition. All other courses mostly relied on what was contained there.

So I would fully agree, but I'd also be a bit surprised if you don't have any dedicated "math for scientists"-like courses to cover the stuff usually needed.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#48

Post by john_strinlai » Thu, May 28, 2026, 2:40 PM UTC

simonw wrote: post #21

john_strinlai wrote: post #3

> “We now observe preparation gaps so severe that instructors must reteach middle-school mathematics while simultaneously teaching the material students need for sciences, engineering, economics, and other quantitatively demanding fields,” they warned. i dont understand why the teachers would go out of their way to reteach middle-school math. i teach. my courses have prerequisites. if a student somehow makes it into…

Have you observed a reduction in the number of students who match those pre-requisites over time?

i have not tracked it, so this isn't based in data. but, no, i have not noticed any major trends.

i dont have any 1st-year courses though, which is where a lot of students are filtered out (for various reasons), so im not in the best position to answer that question.

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#49

Post by collabs » Thu, May 28, 2026, 2:40 PM UTC

something that came to my mind as I was reading the comments here -- the thing is that in the quest for professionalism, we have sidelined a lot of people who would be good at teaching in favor of people who are good at jumping hoops. there is a famous quote saying "when the measure becomes a target, it stops being a good measure"

Re: Citing 'severe' math deficits, UC faculty demand a return to SAT tests for STEM

#50

Post by Aarostotle » Thu, May 28, 2026, 2:41 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #22

valleyer wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your analogy works against you, given that tons of professional athletes come from poverty.

Professional athletes are like people who get 1600s on the SAT; a bit of an outlier.

That's exactly the point. Top schools are looking for outlier intellectual talent, but the egalitarian approach (high school grade inflation plus weakening of standardized testing) smooths the differences and makes it harder for them to admit the right people.

The visible result has been the weakening of these institutions. Do also observe that this is recursive — as these institutions have lowered their standards over decades, the people who go through them and end up leading them are weaker, too.