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I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

simonwillison.net

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Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#251
Is PMF enough. It is such a dynamic self-disrupting wave that it is like predicting physical chaos. These aren't early Googles in a blue ocean. Maybe a blue ocean full of pirates and dragons!

This isn't me being a doomer I just don't know. Can we look at Q2 profits and draw hockey sticks yet?

Remember people are boasting how much their expenses are. That is where we are in the bubble/new paradigm.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry, what the feck does "value creation" mean here? I live in a place where people are so, insanely squeezed from every angle. Wages are stagnant, prices rocketing. Where is the money to pay for this value going to come from? No one I know feels richer than they did a decade back. I've not been able to meaningfully put up my prices for a decade. People are tired and stressed and scared, particularly scared of a…

A literal example is that I can use AI to file my taxes instead of spending a weekend and hundreds of dollars to have an accountant do it for me. It costs me like $5. that 245$ delta is the value of that output to me, as long as I am confident it is correct.

> as long as I am confident it is correct

Are you? Does it cost you extra (time or money) to be?

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#253
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For coding you always want to go with the best model in the category, not something that would be the best model if we went 1 year back which GLM 5.1 is, and I'm saying that as a big fan of GLM cause I run a translation site where GLM is good enough for the price. Most of the money right now is in coding. Openai and Anthropic just have to be 6 months ahead of SOTA open source models and they'll capture most of the en…

Most work is not coding. And also, people have it wrong… their models are not the main problem anymore. It’s the RAG

Would love to hear more about your thought about the RAG.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The bottleneck has moved from producing a thing that works to knowing that the thing was the right thing to build I would argue that that's been the case for quite some time before AI. As an example, what innovative amazing world-changing products have Google or Meta launched in the past decade with their very high numbers of very talented and highly-compensated engineers? The issue with most big tech companies are…

I don't know, if you've ever tried to build something at companies of that scale you run into incredibly boring problems "what data table do I need for X" and "who is the right person to reach out to for Y" and "they aren't answering me I guess I'll have to escalate" I don't think there is any shortage of great ideas at these companies, they are just extremely bloated. And I don't think its something like indecision…

>If you have AI systems that can simply build out POCs in days, backtest on real data, show reliable results and numbers, you get a suite of product options you were never able to get before. If you have coding agents that can speed up implementation, you can build more stuff and choose the things that stick.

I'll also add this: within a large organization, you often need to interact with many different codebases owned by many different teams. Agents have made it much easier to wrangle by having the ability to deploy one to scope out your web of dependencies to learn about what would be needed for feature X, and how that integration can happen.

We've been doing far more away team work simply because it makes things move faster. It's easier to convince a team to sign off/review something than it is to get them to commit to the planning and eventual work.

It genuinely is helping things move faster inside large organizations. Or at least, it is for us, particularly since we're getting organizational prioritization to actually build the scaffolding to make those agents more effective at search.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#255
post #29

So how do openai and anthropic plan to keep customers when GLM-5.1 is just as good and open source and a lot cheaper? I don't see the business model working. My closest friend actually does automation software for large companies. He does not use Claude or openai at all. He primarily uses gpt 120b on cerebras and glm-5.1 for heavy thinking work. And some other small models for various tasks. All open source. And thes…

For coding assistance, I have tried OpenCode with several large open models through OpenRouter. All were fairly bad compared to Claude Opus. Could you provide some hints on how I should be holding these open models so that I might get more value out of them? I agree with the common trope that open models lag behind by about a year, but something magical happened just around a year ago when the state of the art models…

Do more planning yourself, be smart about the context, break down tasks into smaller components, give it more guidance. You can't just lazily prompt it to complete large features autonomously and expect good results.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#256
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are making the assumption that the models are only used / paid for by 2.5% of the population (your knowledge workers value). There will be new value created by these models which people are happy to pay for which simply did not exist at all before. It is also naive to say that the hyperscalers are going to be expecting a return on this in 5 years, it will be entirely propped up by investments / IPOs as has been t…

I'm sorry, what the feck does "value creation" mean here? I live in a place where people are so, insanely squeezed from every angle. Wages are stagnant, prices rocketing. Where is the money to pay for this value going to come from? No one I know feels richer than they did a decade back. I've not been able to meaningfully put up my prices for a decade. People are tired and stressed and scared, particularly scared of a…

Sounds like internet sentiment and not research data.

It's kind of become socially taboo to not be suffering "in this economy", but on paper it's hard to see weakness in places that there isn't always weakness. As long as the 65-95% are doing well, there isn't going to be a collapse.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#257
post #76
post #22

200$ per month per seat is nothing . A single 3D CAD license pack for the guys in our R&D group costs multiple thousands of dollars per seat, per month. It's about time software seats get some love too.

CATIA licenses which are the most expensive I've seen are roughly $600/month per user. Where are you seeing "thousands of dollars per seat"?

CATIA with plugins can go up to 100k a year. That’s what we currently pay

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#258

They've got, ballpark, $5t to $10t to make back in the next 5 years, or the hardware buildouts will start getting written down. This means we're going to need $1t+ per year in spending, per year, on tokens. 200m knowledge workers in the world, 30m developers. We're talking about a world where you need 5% of every knowledge workers salary to go into tokens. 20% if you're a developer. That's a _huge_ shift. Most people…

I work for a tiny little company ($150MM annual rev with 9% net) and we are already looking at dropping $100k on hardware to run local models because, for us, they're "good enough." Our estimated spend for AIaaS would exceed that cost in less than a year. In a few years, there will be hardware capable of running frontier models good enough for most things at accessible prices for even tiny companies.

> ...we are already looking at dropping $100k on hardware to run local models...

Just think how much further that $100K would have gone if the hardware market wasn't so screwed-up.

Anecdote: I priced-out adding 1TB of RAM to a four node cluster a couple months ago. The cluster was purchased in fall of 2024 w/ 4 nodes, each with 256GB RAM. The nodes cost just over $14K apiece back in 2024 (entire box, not just the RAM).

Dell wanted >$90K a couple months ago to add 256GB to each node.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#259
I'm a huge fan of agent coding but kinda dislike this "llm evangelism".

There are still several open points (eg.: code churn, maintainability, subtle bugs human will never do) that everyone with a minimal programming knowledge that seriously used a LLM agent knows about but somehow none of these "big influencers" never mention (or just saying "it's your fault").

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#260
post #14

> $2,180.16 worth of tokens for $200 “Tokens” don’t have an intrisic cost or value. Saying that I used $2,180.16 worth of tokens is like relying on the salesperson to convince me I’m getting a billion dollars worth of pots and pans for $19.99. I think it’s funny how we are throwing critical thinking out the window when it comes to evaluating biased sources of info.

His point is more he was surprised enterprises weren't getting the discount. And so indeed maybe it is not a giant ponzi after all! (Could be a bubble)
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