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I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

simonwillison.net

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Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#21

Post by binary0010 »

zuzululu wrote: post #10

Great article I know this upsets a lot of people who are used to thinking Anthropic/OpenAI are just lighting cash on fire but they've cornered the market on enterprise who cannot walk away from these $200/month plans However the valuations are still far far away from actual sanity

Have you tried the large open source code models?

I use glm-5.1 and occasionally deep seek v4.

They are as good or better than Claude's latest models.

And significantly cheaper. I've converted 3 of my engineer friends as well. All three have dropped their $200 month plans they had with anthropic.

We've all been a bit shocked at just how good these models are now.

If you "have" tried GLM (I specifically find it shockingly good for code). Did you not think it's not competitive to Claude, and why?

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#23

Post by Legend2440 »

>Somehow this fragment turned into headlines like Uber’s COO says it’s getting harder to justify the money spent on AI tokenmaxxing, because the market for stories about AI failures remains enormous.

I notice this all over the place. Many people hate AI and want it to fail, and they're willing to invent misinformation if it supports that idea.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#24

Post by kgwgk »

mesmertech wrote: post #15
binary0010 wrote: post #12

So how do openai and anthropic plan to keep customers when GLM-5.1 is just as good and open source and a lot cheaper? I don't see the business model working. My closest friend actually does automation software for large companies. He does not use Claude or openai at all. He primarily uses gpt 120b on cerebras and glm-5.1 for heavy thinking work. And some other small models for various tasks. All open source. And thes…

For coding you always want to go with the best model in the category, not something that would be the best model if we went 1 year back which GLM 5.1 is, and I'm saying that as a big fan of GLM cause I run a translation site where GLM is good enough for the price. Most of the money right now is in coding. Openai and Anthropic just have to be 6 months ahead of SOTA open source models and they'll capture most of the en…

For coding like for everything else in life cost is a factor.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#25

Post by obsidianbases1 »

EGreg wrote: post #18
mesmertech wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For coding you always want to go with the best model in the category, not something that would be the best model if we went 1 year back which GLM 5.1 is, and I'm saying that as a big fan of GLM cause I run a translation site where GLM is good enough for the price. Most of the money right now is in coding. Openai and Anthropic just have to be 6 months ahead of SOTA open source models and they'll capture most of the en…

Most work is not coding. And also, people have it wrong… their models are not the main problem anymore. It’s the RAG

Depending on RAG is a workflow problem, not an AI problem

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#27

Post by smallerfish »

zuzululu wrote: post #10

Great article I know this upsets a lot of people who are used to thinking Anthropic/OpenAI are just lighting cash on fire but they've cornered the market on enterprise who cannot walk away from these $200/month plans However the valuations are still far far away from actual sanity

> enterprise who cannot walk away from these $200/month plans

But that's the point of the article. Enterprise plans are starting to get API pricing, not the subsidized subscription pricing.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#28

Post by binary0010 »

mesmertech wrote: post #15
binary0010 wrote: post #12

So how do openai and anthropic plan to keep customers when GLM-5.1 is just as good and open source and a lot cheaper? I don't see the business model working. My closest friend actually does automation software for large companies. He does not use Claude or openai at all. He primarily uses gpt 120b on cerebras and glm-5.1 for heavy thinking work. And some other small models for various tasks. All open source. And thes…

For coding you always want to go with the best model in the category, not something that would be the best model if we went 1 year back which GLM 5.1 is, and I'm saying that as a big fan of GLM cause I run a translation site where GLM is good enough for the price. Most of the money right now is in coding. Openai and Anthropic just have to be 6 months ahead of SOTA open source models and they'll capture most of the en…

Yes I'm an engineer (20 years most in games/graphics industry) and only use it for code. I've been using glm 5.1 this week a lot. I went in expecting another "decent" but not really "up to standard" open source model.

I highly doubt I'll ever use Claude again.

I think you are wrong about Claude being any significant level better

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#29

Post by smokel »

binary0010 wrote: post #12

So how do openai and anthropic plan to keep customers when GLM-5.1 is just as good and open source and a lot cheaper? I don't see the business model working. My closest friend actually does automation software for large companies. He does not use Claude or openai at all. He primarily uses gpt 120b on cerebras and glm-5.1 for heavy thinking work. And some other small models for various tasks. All open source. And thes…

For coding assistance, I have tried OpenCode with several large open models through OpenRouter. All were fairly bad compared to Claude Opus. Could you provide some hints on how I should be holding these open models so that I might get more value out of them?

I agree with the common trope that open models lag behind by about a year, but something magical happened just around a year ago when the state of the art models became extremely useful. By this reasoning we're about to see open models perform well, but I'm afraid there is more to it than just waiting for another revolution around the sun.

Note, my application is coding assistance. Open models can be great for other purposes.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#30

Post by john_strinlai »

prepend wrote: post #14

> $2,180.16 worth of tokens for $200 “Tokens” don’t have an intrisic cost or value. Saying that I used $2,180.16 worth of tokens is like relying on the salesperson to convince me I’m getting a billion dollars worth of pots and pans for $19.99. I think it’s funny how we are throwing critical thinking out the window when it comes to evaluating biased sources of info.

a little critical thinking led me to read that sentence as $2180 worth of tokens [at current api pricing]
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