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I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

simonwillison.net

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Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#221
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who pays for that value, and from what, if all knowledge workers lose their jobs? It sounds like the economy would largely reduce to the small minority class of independently wealthy people.

There were no knowledge workers in the middle ages.

There definitely were what could be considered knowledge workers in the (high) middle ages, it just wasn't the majority of work like today. The knowledge workers then were just a tiny, elite faction, mostly employed by the church or directly by nobility. Kindgoms were still big bureaucracies and needed scribes, theologians, academics, lawyers.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#222
The big assumption with all of these sorts of analyses is that things will continue as they are for the foreseeable future.

In hype-driven markets, you cannot be certain of that.

Let's take a view that the author is right: coding agents and their associated harnesses were the inflection point for some degree of profitability and widespread consumption, and that these tools are now yet another SaaS subscription or API bucket expense to bake into every single developer (or developer-adjacent) in the organization alongside your collab suite, HR seat, CRM seat, design seat, etc. To be fair I honestly think that's a safe assumption to make for highly technical firms whose image is derived from remaining on the cutting edge of things.

That begs the following questions, which we won't know until IPOs start happening:

* Are subscriptions profitable, or just API consumption?

* What's the run rate when we just consider subscription-based usage like Claude Code and Codex? What about API calls?

* Is there any profitable pathway forward at which enterprises can get unlimited usage but at fixed rates via subscription?

* What does customer churn look like for subscription users versus API users?

We also have a number of questions for customers that I suspect we'll start seeing receipts for in the coming months, at least from the early adopters:

* What was the net gain (loss) from leveraging coding agents?

* What's the cost of a developer with or without access to a coding agent + harness? Is it cheaper to hire an outsourced worker with a coding agent subscription, or a domestic worker without one?

* At what point does further AI spend result in diminishing returns, i.e. where's the 'sweet spot' for spend?

* Did AI boost actual revenue and outcomes, or did it just gamify KPIs?

* What roles or work did AI actually replace, versus merely displace during the hype cycle?

Not to mention the questions regarding the technology itself:

* Will we develop the means to run foundational/frontier models at edge using less resources through some existing (e.g. distillation) or new technology, thus cutting off the profit centers of these firms?

* When the market mismatch between supply and demand is resolved, won't it be more affordable for consumers and companies to operate their own AI infrastructure rather than support further centralized buildouts?

* Will coding agents improve to the point of being able to bootstrap and self-orchestrate on edge/consumer hardware without substantial technical expertise, or at least improve to the point that traditional IT teams can securely operate them internally without an expensive subscription or API token bucket?

All of these will influence the long tail of this bubble, because it is a bubble at this point. Even if these companies are indeed profitable thanks to the coding agent inflection point, there's still so many unanswered questions about utility beyond coding that it's impossible to extrapolate a future. If coding agents are indeed the extent of utility for profitability, then there's no possible way these entities will recoup the investment already sunk into their infrastructure buildouts. Even if more profitable uses are discovered, does this offset or replace the firms disappearing due to AI speculation and their associated contributions to the economy as a whole (RE: the consumer compute industry at present, higher energy costs due to datacenter builds, opportunity cost from harms to local infrastructure from haphazard builds, etc)? Should these firms indeed be runaway successes and immensely profitable to the point of paying off their investors and growing the larger economy, does this end up stifling innovation in a world where most new ideas are fed into LLMs for R&D that are then controlled by only a handful of companies and immensely wealthy people, via systems that are easily surveilled and stolen from without recourse?

So many, many questions yet to be answered. Betting the farm because of coding agents is one hell of a gamble.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> enterprise who cannot walk away from these $200/month plans Any org with more than 150 users aren't on $200/month plans, they are forced into API pricing + $20/month/user For individuals and orgs small enough to get to use the subscription plans, that's all well and good until usage limits keep going down, or cost goes up. If you compare the usage you get on $200/month maxed out vs. what that would cost at API pric…

Not to mention the API plans are also still in their "lose money, just get the suckers hooked like addicts" phase. Once the reality-based pricing comes into play, it's a coin flip of whether the bulk of the companies fail, or they get to live off government subsidies for a few decades. On the plus side, I'm happy I'll have a nice hay barn when the local half-built AI data center is abandoned.

I believe that API pricing runs at a healthy margin, at least compared to the server and energy costs used to serve the tokens.

Recent conversation here on that topic: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47062534#47063134

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#224
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who pays for that value, and from what, if all knowledge workers lose their jobs? It sounds like the economy would largely reduce to the small minority class of independently wealthy people.

There were no knowledge workers in the middle ages.

Are you sure? Any functional organization requires keepers to oil the machine. First the government. The best examples were the chinese empire, the catholic church, and the various kingdoms. Or do you think that everyone was either fighting or farming? Stewardship is knowledge work. Bookkeeping is another.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#225
post #111

They've got, ballpark, $5t to $10t to make back in the next 5 years, or the hardware buildouts will start getting written down. This means we're going to need $1t+ per year in spending, per year, on tokens. 200m knowledge workers in the world, 30m developers. We're talking about a world where you need 5% of every knowledge workers salary to go into tokens. 20% if you're a developer. That's a _huge_ shift. Most people…

YEPPP... and I'm kind of shocked at how many people can't do simple math. Let's put it context. Google's annual revenue seems to be north of $400B. So if OpenAI suddenly had Google's revenue, it would still be insufficient to recover their investment. and it's a ticking time bomb because $1T in servers, CPUs, GPUs and memory is going to be worth $200B in 5 years. You can say they can keep using what they've got. Sure…

How could extremely capable artificial brains ever pay for themselves?

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The bottleneck has moved from producing a thing that works to knowing that the thing was the right thing to build. The more of the latter they can take on, the fewer knowledge workers are needed at all . So rather than 5% of every knowledge worker's salary going into tokens, 100% of the knowledge worker's total employment cost goes into tokens and you get a 20x productivity boost as a theoretical minimum across those…

This is the same argument that has been historically made for outsourcing developers. Get 20 more devs for the cost of 1 dev in the US. I suspect that AI will fail to pan out to the same extent for the same reason why outsourcing hasn't fully panned out (even though every company tries it after getting big enough). The problems that will come up will be and always have been ongoing maintenance. AI is great at writing…

Outsourcing of knowledge workers didn't work out because at large enough scales, the geographic arbitrage disappeared. Companies mostly always got what they paid for.

The determinant of success was only whether the task needed American-tier labor or could make do with sub-American quality labor.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are a few thoughts: - The publicly available information about how inference costs compare to training costs is conflicted. EEs involved in datacenters talk about power usage spikes during training runs as if they were a major factor in the designs, but academic papers discussing cost-optimal scaling confidently treat inference-time compute as a major factor. - On the side of the balance indicating that training…

I'm about to leave a shallow comment, but I am a bit skeptical of the supposed drop in inference costs. If AI labs saw a lot of potential there, they'd surely be bragging about it non-stop? So the fact that publicly available information is conflicted is probably a sign that at the very least, the numbers aren't amazing. Yes I know there's no evidence and this is lazy reasoning. But there's probably a bit of truth to…

Inference has traditionally been far less expensive than training. One public example is the fact that hobbyists can run StableDiffusion ($600k training costs[1]) on their personal computers.

Speaking to your point, inference being dramatically less costly than training would not be seen as a delta from the norm. The model of providing inference for anything near the operational costs (like a utility would), would the delta from the norm if it were true.

[1] https://x.com/emostaque/status/1563870674111832066

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#228

So how do openai and anthropic plan to keep customers when GLM-5.1 is just as good and open source and a lot cheaper? I don't see the business model working. My closest friend actually does automation software for large companies. He does not use Claude or openai at all. He primarily uses gpt 120b on cerebras and glm-5.1 for heavy thinking work. And some other small models for various tasks. All open source. And thes…

For coding you always want to go with the best model in the category, not something that would be the best model if we went 1 year back which GLM 5.1 is, and I'm saying that as a big fan of GLM cause I run a translation site where GLM is good enough for the price. Most of the money right now is in coding. Openai and Anthropic just have to be 6 months ahead of SOTA open source models and they'll capture most of the en…

> For XXX you always want to go with XXX, not XXX

Oh, hey, I recognize you. Thank you for the very forward and thorough orbital sander recommendation at Home Depot. That's exactly what I wanted to deal with on my holiday weekend. You just know so much about this and the rest of us are simple passersbys.

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#229
The real timing is that we don't have strong enough new business needs for now and we have accumulated enough tech assets, so our work has been increasingly incremental. That means we can build reliable features on top of vast amount of past work - where AI really shines. So, with or without AI, companied would hire fewer software engineers if majority of our work is incremental: add a feature here, fix a bug there, tweak a configuration and etc, then we wouldn't need as many software engineers anyway. AI just accelerated such squeeze.

In contrast, imagine if we had the same AI 20 years or so ago. Could AI really write Jersey? I guess not as people were still trying to understand JAX-RS. Could AI really answer all the questions about React? I guess not as React was just invented. Would we use 10x fewer people to build out infra on the public cloud or the entire so-called Big Data platforms? I guess not, as they were still rapidly evolving and we'd need so many engineers to explore so many different possibilities? Could we use AI to build our ML ecosystem with 10X fewer people? I highly doubt so. Heck, 20 years ago R was all the rage and Python's ecosystem was not mature at all. Oh, and mobile computing, could AI lead to 10X fewer people to build all the mobile apps and the underlying infra?

Re: I think Anthropic and OpenAI have found product-market fit

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We're talking about a world where you need 5% of every knowledge workers salary to go into tokens. They are assuming ~10% global GDP growth instead of ~3%. You probably don't need the same %s if the pie grows a ton. I'm highly skeptical we get that growth, but if you aren't, it makes it easier to digest.

I mean this case with AI-productivity fires itself back when we talk about GDP. The more AI causes productivity increases, the less and less number of workers will be needed. This will heat up the job market even more and bring salaries down. Net effect of this productivity increase: less consumption by the masses, even though you may be producing more good and much more efficiently. A third effect also comes into pl…

First of all, common people are not living paycheck to paycheck in the sense that they're at risk of not having money[0]. This is corporate content marketing that has entered the collective memory of people, not anything close to reality.

Secondarily, reducing the cost of making a thing doesn't always mean you get less of a thing. For me, certainly, what happened is that I write way more software than I originally did. When we built compilers, the amount of human engineering effort required to do things plunged, but the amount of software engineering jobs didn't go down.

This is as bad as models will ever be. That part is true. And it's entirely possible we go foom. But it's also possible we don't, and then it depends on where the asymptote lands.

0: https://www.slowboring.com/p/this-economic-myth-needs-to-go-...

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