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Stripe is friendly to “friendly fraud”

gingerlime.com

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Re: Stripe is friendly to “friendly fraud”

#111

Post by gingerlime »

akerl_ wrote: post #104
gingerlime wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Author here. What makes you think Stripe cannot do better here?

Stripe has a customer's bank saying "the customer says they didn't make this payment" and you saying "the customer told me they did make this purchase and got the item and they're making fun of me". They have no way to know if your evidence is real, any more than the bank has a way to know if their customer's evidence is real. Either one (or both) of you could be full of shit. In that world, what would you like Strip…

What do they feed into their Radar machine learning system? surely there are lots of signals to use here. I'm not saying take only my word and ban this customer forever.

But they have my record as a merchant (successful charges, chargebacks, disputes etc), they have the payer record as a consumer (payments, chargebacks etc), when a merchant submits a dispute, they provide evidence. I provided evidence from DHL that the product was delivered.

No single piece of data is enough on its own, but Stripe is in a perfect position to use all those pieces to be able to better detect fraud.

Yet they explicitly do not use this data at all.

Re: Stripe is friendly to “friendly fraud”

#112

Post by albedoa »

zuzululu wrote: post #92
gingerlime wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. But Stripe didn't do anything to prevent the next merchant from falling into the same trap. They had all the evidence, and ignored it. That was the point I tried to make with my blog post. And yes, if it was too easy for merchants to block consumers, that won't be fair either. But surely there's a middle ground here. Stripe very explicitly told me that they don't do anything with such reports. It's simply ignore…

Stripe did the right thing here. They cannot be arbitrators of every little edge cases that comes up. That's not their role. Also I just wanna throw some praise at Stripe Support. They have an excellent team and go above and beyond to help.

> They cannot be arbitrators of every little edge cases

Is this an edge case? It looks like your standard chargeback fraud accompanied by a pile of evidence. What does a common case look like in contrast?

We should expect this to become even more rampant given the ease of clicking a chargeback button and the apparent lack of repercussions.

Re: Stripe is friendly to “friendly fraud”

#113

Post by cortesoft »

m463 wrote: post #106
plantain wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 almost all from the US. The strongest signal is whether they use an eBank/app that has a one-click button to report transactions as fraudulent. The Apple card(?) seems especially prevalent.

I had a friend with the apple card, and there were fraudulent charges on her card before she even used it. I think that caused her to over-scrutinize things. But (years) later I saw her using apple pay. She had charges she didn't recognize and would immediately flag them. Thing is, I couldn't help but think they might have been real charges with weirdly named companies on the transaction.

I feel like companies should do a better job of naming their payment entity something that a customer can know when they see it.

Re: Stripe is friendly to “friendly fraud”

#114

Post by akerl_ »

gingerlime wrote: post #111
akerl_ wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stripe has a customer's bank saying "the customer says they didn't make this payment" and you saying "the customer told me they did make this purchase and got the item and they're making fun of me". They have no way to know if your evidence is real, any more than the bank has a way to know if their customer's evidence is real. Either one (or both) of you could be full of shit. In that world, what would you like Strip…

What do they feed into their Radar machine learning system? surely there are lots of signals to use here. I'm not saying take only my word and ban this customer forever. But they have my record as a merchant (successful charges, chargebacks, disputes etc), they have the payer record as a consumer (payments, chargebacks etc), when a merchant submits a dispute, they provide evidence. I provided evidence from DHL that t…

Based on the quote you provided, the CSR was very specific that what they don't use is merchant-provided evidence. They didn't say they don't leverage information about chargebacks or other disputes.

Re: Stripe is friendly to “friendly fraud”

#115

Post by Cider9986 »

N_Lens wrote: post #58
Cider9986 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Monero or honestly any crypto. There's no chargebacks and it can be more private.

Don't most crypto exchanges ban Monero?

Yes, unfortunately the banking system is hostile to privacy even though the vast majority of money laundering goes through fiat.

Re: Stripe is friendly to “friendly fraud”

#116

Post by rtgfhyuj »

zuzululu wrote: post #28

My suggestion is to just ban specific regions or countries and you can cut 80% of this fraud. I'm not going to name those countries outright but you should never ever be launching globally until you have these safeguards in place. Once you are known to be vulnerable to a certain scheme, it quickly becomes known in that region/country. Again and again I'm reminded why high trust societies remain high trust and why low…

[flagged]

Re: Stripe is friendly to “friendly fraud”

#117

Post by gingerlime »

bberenberg wrote: post #109
gingerlime wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, though this rule sounds a bit tricky. Like what if someone legitimately had their card abused. The thing that gets me is that Stripe boasts about their machine learning radar rules etc etc, but somehow can't feed it actually valuable data. Stripe support saw the emails from the customer boasting about defrauding me, they completely agreed that this is a clear case of friendly-fraud, but did nothing with this in…

Stripe can’t do anything per the way CCs work. Asking for that to change is a big ask. Asking my vendor to help me not do business with people who are likely to scam me is a smaller one.

100% agree. They cannot reverse the dispute. I already lost the money. I understand.

But Stripe is exactly in a position to at least use the evidence I provided (in this case, the evidence included the customer clearly admitting to friendly fraud), and feed it into their fraud-prevention system in some way. This way, lots of signals can help protect merchants from friendly fraudsters. So yes, I see it as a pretty small and legit ask from Stripe.

Re: Stripe is friendly to “friendly fraud”

#118

Post by nathanmills »

mamurphy wrote: post #95
nathanmills wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, vagueness gets me much more upset, but there's just nothing to write about in those cases.

>No, vagueness gets me much more upset, but there's just nothing to write about in those cases. I think this hits on the spirit behind GP's point. Clarity, leading to an article like the one posted, gets more people upset. The equation (Upset/People x People) results in a larger number -- people, as a whole, are more upset. >But you can see the logic behind why many other big companies would just respond with an opaq…

I don't see many people upset at Stripe over this, I certainly am not.

Re: Stripe is friendly to “friendly fraud”

#119

Post by laserdancepony »

zuzululu wrote: post #28

My suggestion is to just ban specific regions or countries and you can cut 80% of this fraud. I'm not going to name those countries outright but you should never ever be launching globally until you have these safeguards in place. Once you are known to be vulnerable to a certain scheme, it quickly becomes known in that region/country. Again and again I'm reminded why high trust societies remain high trust and why low…

[flagged]
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