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Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

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Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#361

Post by hvb2 »

CodesInChaos wrote: post #184
mcv wrote: post #43

Wero is basically an EU-wide version of the Dutch iDeal system, which in my opinion is the gold standard of how internet payment should work. I shouldn't have to fill in any card numbers on the site of the merchant (which is unsafe). Instead, the payment should redirect me to my bank, where I authorize the payment through my own bank's security system. I've always been annoyed by the need to type in sensitive card in…

> iDeal system, which in my opinion is the gold standard of how internet payment should work Is it? I see it more as an underwhelming fix for SEPA Direct Debit's inability to verify payment data synchronously. * iDeal doesn't support basic features like pre-authorization. I'm not even sure if it supports setting up a payment agreement without triggering an immediate payment at all (pretty sure it didn't, when we inte…

> It hands over the customer's IBAN, which isn't really that much safer than a credit card number, since any merchant can trigger a SEPA Direct Debit using it.

Yes. And they would quickly lose their ability to process any payments. This is the exact same idea as how credit cards work. I don't see my IBAN as a secret, all my friends have it, as thats how they can send me money right to my account.

> that requires you to actively monitor for fraudulent transactions, which a decent system wouldn't allow in the first place.

So that rules out credit cards too, exact same system.

I'm not familiar with pix mentioned in the other threads, but I am not familiar with any other system that is better

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#362

Post by mcv »

mytailorisrich wrote: post #284
jeroenhd wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some countries there is a payment system that works by generating QR codes at checkout and scanning those with your phone. I don't know if Wero intends to also support those, but it could make for a direct integration into live checkout. I think the Digital Euro initiative is closer to replacing contactless payments than Wero is, but it'll depend on the country I think.

IMHO, QR codes are a big step back from contactless and appeared in countries that didn't have widespread card adoption (e.g. China),

QR codes aren't a replacement for contactless. Contactless will stay, although unfortunately Dutch banks have recently discontinued their own contactless payment system and moved to Google Pay, which was a terrible decision.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#363

Post by llm_nerd »

kvgr wrote: post #212
And1 wrote: post #78

Love to see it. When Canada legalized weed in 2018, the US administration made it clear that they can ban Canadians from the US for life if they have used marijuana in the past. The administration alluded to looking at Canadian's transaction history to facilitate cracking down on this more harshly[1]. It was so clear at that point to me how badly sovereign payments and banking is so needed. FATCA is a thing, I get it…

What makes you think EU will not look into it and block us from buying “bad things”?

Do you think that is a retort in some way?

EU residents have a say over the EU. Canadians have a say over the Canadian government. We do not have a say over a nuclear-armed idiocracy forcing it's profound corruption and stupidity on other sovereign entities.

For instance right now the US, in defending their war-crime boss Israel, has sanctioned judges of the ICC, including Canadians, Europeans, etc. Any US firm enforcing such a sanction should be booted from operating in all of those countries. Which is precisely why Visa and Mastercard are soon going to be a busted, provincial, US-only concern. Well, maybe they'll have it in the great nation of Venezuela as well.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#364

Post by DCKP »

skrebbel wrote: post #72

I'd like to take this opportunity to share with you all that Wero is called Wero because Euro is pronounced "you-ro" and when you share your you-ro it becomes a we-ro.

Unless you're in Germany, when it's more like "oy-ro"... and Wero would be pronounced "ve-ro"... I don't think there's a German pun hiding here!

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#365

Post by bee_rider »

gloosx wrote: post #267
moralestapia wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brazil is on the West, fyi.

on the West of what? Culturally and historically it's a Western country, yes, but politically and economically it's an Eastern country – founding member of BRICS and a developing economy. I think the author of the parent comment used "Western" term referring to ideological and economic grouping

I think the idea of what’s authoritarian sounding is more of a cultural/historical/ideological distinction, not something that would naturally map to an economic label like BRICS.

Also Western and Eastern are just labels in this context, not opposite directions, even if Brazil was “not Western” in some way, it wouldn’t make sense to call it Eastern.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#366

Post by SoftTalker »

Forgeties79 wrote: post #353
CobaltFire wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be pedantic American Express and Discover exist. But I agree with your meaning. We are beholden to some third party no matter how we move in the current situation.

Amex is regularly rejected by businesses and cannot be your only credit card, so really you maybe have Discover. I also wouldn’t say either of those is particularly better than Visa/Mastercard. They all engage in the same practices more or less

The only places I've found that refuse AMEX are very small mom and pop operations. And of those, many don't accept cards of any type: cash only.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#367

Post by jeanloolz »

petcat wrote: post #13

> A Frenchman using Wero will be able to transfer money to a Spanish friend on Bizum, with the same simplicity as a domestic payment. Have you seen the new money app? It's on Tubu. It's on Weeno. I'm on Dippy but my friend is on Poob. Poob has it for you.

Frenchman here, living in Spain. This speaks to me on many levels. Bizum is so integrated in my daily life in Spain, that I wished my french friends had it when we need to transfer money between each other. Looks like we're going in that direction. Phenomenal

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#368

Post by OptionOfT »

mcv wrote: post #43

Wero is basically an EU-wide version of the Dutch iDeal system, which in my opinion is the gold standard of how internet payment should work. I shouldn't have to fill in any card numbers on the site of the merchant (which is unsafe). Instead, the payment should redirect me to my bank, where I authorize the payment through my own bank's security system. I've always been annoyed by the need to type in sensitive card in…

What about authentication?

I remember living in Belgium this was the case, and I always had to go and find that stupid physical barcode reader that I then had to hold against the screen, sign in with my debit card, PIN, enter the Euro amount, and then sign the transaction.

Now that I live in the USA, I have my credit card number in Bitwarden, with expiration date and CVC.

When I want to buy something, I let it autofill, and I don't have to verify and / or sign any transactions, bar high price ones (e.g. new $5k TV from Best Buy).

And in terms of security? It's a credit card. I review my statement every month. If I didn't make the purchase I call the fraud department and the charge is removed. Last time I did that they didn't even ask me questions.

I'd take Apple pay over the old(?) EU system.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#369

Post by vanviegen »

jen20 wrote: post #300
SkeuomorphicBee wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is by design. It separates the payment processor so it does just that, just payments. It is like money, once you give it to someone else there is no automatic way to fish it back from their pocket to yours. The correct avenue to deal with fraud, bankruptcy and other malicious actor is the small claims court (or civil court, or criminal court). The moment you start burdening the payment processor with the roles o…

That makes it a bad design, since every person you interact with has the potential to be a scumbag and not deliver on what you paid for. "Get a lawyer and sue them" or "Rely on your local consumer advocacy agency" cannot be the answers at the kind of scale that will be enabled. This is the reason I only _ever_ spend money on credit cards, and never use cash or debit cards (European in the US). I've personally had at…

At least up til now, this doesn't seem to be a significant problem with iDeal. Any iDeal receiver will need to have at least a Dutch bank account, which requires the bank to be very sure of the identity of the person/people (UBOs) holding the account. So downright fraud is unlikely. If there is, one can file a police report, and hopefully the DA will take it to court.

Disputes between non-fraudulent entities happen of course. But I really don't like some algorithm somewhere taking seemingly arbitrary decisions on that. It usually just amounts to robbing merchants of their money, and adding some exorbitant refund fee to top it of. Settling disputes is what small claims court and dispute committees are for.

Of course, with iDeal now effectively becoming EU-wide, things may get more difficult.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#370

Post by dlisboa »

tiffanyh wrote: post #90

Dumb question for those EU folks ... How do you use this when paying online? Is there the equivalent of an "Apple Pay" button on merchant website for those based in EU? (Or a Pix button, when in Brazil, etc?)

A "Pay with PIX" button is just a QR code. You reach the payment page, the merchant website generates a QR code, you open up your bank app, scan the QR code, confirm the merchant and the purchase, the merchant website runs a spinner for like 10 seconds while it confirms it in the background, and then you get a confirmation of your purchase with an order number.
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