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Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

lesnumeriques.com

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Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#311

Post by positron26 »

SkeuomorphicBee wrote: post #282
SomeUserName432 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> PIX from Brazil is even better, to be honest. You lack the inherent fraud, bankruptcy and other malicious actor protection that Visa/Mastercard provides. Bought something online and didn't receive your product? With PIX you're SOL, with Visa/Mastercard you get a chargeback.

That is by design. It separates the payment processor so it does just that, just payments. It is like money, once you give it to someone else there is no automatic way to fish it back from their pocket to yours. The correct avenue to deal with fraud, bankruptcy and other malicious actor is the small claims court (or civil court, or criminal court). The moment you start burdening the payment processor with the roles o…

> their own arbitrary reasons

Outside pressure behind much of it.

In any case, there's a fundamental mismatch between pressure groups and the leverage they can exert through single-consensus. I don't know how to describe the other consensus that is on my brain, but it is distinct.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#312

Post by cybrox »

dgan wrote: post #211
sgjohnson wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > A Frenchman using Wero will be able to transfer money to a Spanish friend on Bizum, with the same simplicity as a domestic payment. SEPA Instant Payments also solves that.

I doubt so, because i need to type god-knows-how-many characters by hand, while visually separating them into chunks by 4, then explicitly authorize the receiver. Oh, and explicitly authorise the country

While your complaint is valid, no need to separate in chunks, there's a checksum.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#313

Post by andix »

lxgr wrote: post #190
jonkoops wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After typing your card numbers Yes, but the whole point of Wero is that you don't have to type in a bunch of info that can be easily stolen. With Wero (and many other international solutions), you just scan a code with your phone, and your banking app handles the transactions. The existing legacy solutions are just duct tape on an existing system.

If 3DS and chip + PIN card usage were ubiquitous, the value of a stolen card number and even card would be zero, and this entire problem would go away. Unfortunately, legacy deployments have just proven too pervasive to effect real change, even with substantial incentives, especially in early card adopting markets such as the US.

Aren't they ubiquitous and required at least for 5-10 years now?

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#315

Post by SkeuomorphicBee »

jen20 wrote: post #300
SkeuomorphicBee wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is by design. It separates the payment processor so it does just that, just payments. It is like money, once you give it to someone else there is no automatic way to fish it back from their pocket to yours. The correct avenue to deal with fraud, bankruptcy and other malicious actor is the small claims court (or civil court, or criminal court). The moment you start burdening the payment processor with the roles o…

That makes it a bad design, since every person you interact with has the potential to be a scumbag and not deliver on what you paid for. "Get a lawyer and sue them" or "Rely on your local consumer advocacy agency" cannot be the answers at the kind of scale that will be enabled. This is the reason I only _ever_ spend money on credit cards, and never use cash or debit cards (European in the US). I've personally had at…

(I was editing when you repplied so I'll add it here for you:)

And just to add, you can have "chargeback" for PIX as a separate service, most banks offer PIX insurance that is basically CC chargeback by a different name. But the key is that it is separate from the payment infrastructure itself, it is an insurance service that you contract separately. And that separation ins very important, the insurance company can't roll back transactions arbitrarily, or deny people access to the financial system, they have to pay the victim and then claw back their money in court, which is the appropriate venue to decide who is right or wrong in a transaction.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#316

Post by epolanski »

reddalo wrote: post #54
epolanski wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Satispay is no longer really used anymore. It was only welcomed by merchants in the 0-fee era, now no merchant cares anymore as Satispay is no longer free of charge and pulled the rug. And to send payments across friends there's instant bank wires (often free of charge), and even when it's not instant it is executed in few hours-one working day max which isn't a big issue when you're transferring money across friends…

> And to send payments across friends there's instant bank wires That's nice (when it's free), but banking apps are clunky, unfriendly, heavy and slow. Unicredit and Intesa, two main Italian banks, both have apps that are atrocious to use and riddled with annoyances. People want an easy and quick way to send/receive money (Satispay does that almost well). And for some banks Wero seems like it's going to be available…

> That's nice (when it's free), but banking apps are clunky, unfriendly, heavy and slow.

They are all fine for a simple wire transfer.

I do have Intesa myself cause I've got mortgage through them and sending a wire transfer is both simple and fast.

So is on our other accounts: BBVA (Italian), mBank (Polish), Credem (Italian), Mediobanca (IT) and XTB and Revolut (both PL and IT).

I think you're really describing a 10 year old non-issue.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#317

Post by lxgr »

skywal_l wrote: post #239
jonkoops wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> After typing your card numbers Yes, but the whole point of Wero is that you don't have to type in a bunch of info that can be easily stolen. With Wero (and many other international solutions), you just scan a code with your phone, and your banking app handles the transactions. The existing legacy solutions are just duct tape on an existing system.

Does it mean that instead of depending on the Visa/Mastercard duopoly you now depend on the Google/Apple duopoly?

Of course not, since you can just install the Android app on your free software aftermarket OS. Surely banks wouldn't require hardware attestation or monitor your device for being rooted, would they? /s

Irony aside, yeah, this is a significant downside compared to hardware-based standards. Not so much for Android, as Google Pay and most competitors are implemented in software, but on a hypothetical iPhone or Garmin device running an open OS (don't laugh, it's a thought experiment), payment data security would be not much of a concern since all payment keys live in a secure and completely separate chip.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#319

Post by lxgr »

antonkochubey wrote: post #214
Xirdus wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with 3D Secure is that the merchant can unilaterally decide not to use it, which defeats the whole purpose of 3D Secure.

non-3DS payments are trivial to chargeback, at least in the EU

They are everywhere. Default liability for online payments is and has always been with the merchant; only 3DS and some wallets can shift it to the issuer.

Re: Goodbye Visa and Mastercard: 130M Europeans switching to sovereign payment

#320

Post by DwnVoteHoneyPot »

jen20 wrote: post #300
SkeuomorphicBee wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is by design. It separates the payment processor so it does just that, just payments. It is like money, once you give it to someone else there is no automatic way to fish it back from their pocket to yours. The correct avenue to deal with fraud, bankruptcy and other malicious actor is the small claims court (or civil court, or criminal court). The moment you start burdening the payment processor with the roles o…

That makes it a bad design, since every person you interact with has the potential to be a scumbag and not deliver on what you paid for. "Get a lawyer and sue them" or "Rely on your local consumer advocacy agency" cannot be the answers at the kind of scale that will be enabled. This is the reason I only _ever_ spend money on credit cards, and never use cash or debit cards (European in the US). I've personally had at…

There also a large number of typos that happen. Typos in the amount. Typos in email or mobile number where you are sending the funds to (if pushing a payment instead of seller pulling).
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