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Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

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Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#131

Post by Aurornis »

dimes wrote: post #115
Aurornis wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The microbiome might have some modulating effect, but the fidelity of gut-brain axis communication isn’t so strong that our gut microbiome is driving us around with highly specific inputs. The theories for how gut-brain axis modulation works include altering the balance of nutrients that get absorbed and modulating the vagus nerve, primarily. For someone with autism it might be possible that altering some of these ba…

I’m not going to pretend to be an expert here, but I remember a study that found gut bacteria composition predicted whether or not an individual was chocolate-craving or not in individuals eating identical diets: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17929959

You have to be careful with microbiome research because it’s a buzzword that gets crammed into a lot of research papers to imply something bigger. This is a single paper from Nestle Research Center (yes that Nestle) from 2007 that doesn’t even cite a number of people sampled in the abstract.

They didn’t run any experiments trying to change the diet or microbiome. They just correlated dietary preferences with some markers that might be correlated with the microbiome.

The paper does not say anything about how changing the microbiome might change preferences. The simplest and most well tested explanation is that dietary preference are driving the microbiome.

There’s a lot of woo-woo microbiome discussion out there that misses the really obvious basics of how the microbiome comes to exist and thrive: What you eat is what the microbiome eats, so changing what you eat will change the composition of bacteria that thrive. People who prefer chocolate are correlated with people who prefer sweet diets. High sugar intake is proven to alter the microbiome.

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#132

Post by Aurornis »

mrtesthah wrote: post #121
dimes wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not going to pretend to be an expert here, but I remember a study that found gut bacteria composition predicted whether or not an individual was chocolate-craving or not in individuals eating identical diets: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17929959

It makes sense for chocolate given that cocoa flavanols are prebiotic fiber for GABA-secreting bacteria which of course affects the parasympathetic nervous system.

The paper didn’t say that the microbiome was driving food preferences.

It measured some bio markers and some dietary preferences and claims some correlation.

The correlation is that what you eat fuels the microbiome. So your diet influences the microbiome by fueling or starving different bacteria.

Complex theories about causality going the other way through complex chains of flavonoids to bacteria to neurotransmitters to the parasympathetic nervous system sound impressive with all of the big words, but it’s such a complex theory that would need other testing to even begin to understand if there was something there.

Testing the other direction is easy and obvious. You can grow many bacteria in a Petri dish and see that some grow better or worse with different nutrients.

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#133

Post by delecti »

wackget wrote: post #118

First website where I've had to disable first-party JavaScript just to be able to read a text-based article. Even Firefox's reader mode was hijacked by their anti-ad-blocker script. Shameful.

It worked completely fine in my Firefox with uBlock Origin. I didn't have to do anything to read it, not even disabling UBO.

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#134

Post by doctorpangloss »

jtc331 wrote: post #130
doctorpangloss wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't the only company doing this exact therapy. It isn't a good one. When I looked at preclinical for one of their competitors, that was the exact same thing, the issue was study design. Specifically, you are shoving something up an autistic kid's butt once a day or twice a day. They only did this to the placebo arm for 3 days, and only to healthy kids, whereas the treatment arm did this for 8 weeks. If I punc…

Given there are cases of sudden onset autism being resolved with antifungals, it’s at least not implausible that fecal transplants could be effective too.

No. No chance. It's completely implausible. This is reflected in their actual Phase II trial - NCT06503978 - whose primary endpoint is relieving GI symptoms. It's far from curing autism. It is idiosyncratic to target this population. They could do the same trial with healthy adults, but of course, twice daily massive laxatives is not something very marketable. The reason this product is the way it is is because ASD kids cannot really say no.

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#135

Post by user_7832 »

directevolve wrote: post #56

Many autistic children have extremely limited diets. For example, a geneticist friend of mine saw a case where an autistic child had been referred for genetic testing because of horrific, chronic, spontaneous wounds on gums and skin. Turned out to be scurvy, because he had exclusively eaten Wheat Thins for the last 3-4 years, which aren’t fortified with vitamin C. I would fully expect that a monotonous diet leads to…

Given how many kids are told to just "shut up and eat it" - and/or didn't have extreme pickiness but got DX'ed perhaps as an adult - I'd say there's a ton of research required to even suggest this as a plausible cause (even for a limited number of cases). It might make things worse, but I highly doubt it's causative.

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#137

Post by NooneAtAll3 »

user_7832 wrote: post #135
directevolve wrote: post #56

Many autistic children have extremely limited diets. For example, a geneticist friend of mine saw a case where an autistic child had been referred for genetic testing because of horrific, chronic, spontaneous wounds on gums and skin. Turned out to be scurvy, because he had exclusively eaten Wheat Thins for the last 3-4 years, which aren’t fortified with vitamin C. I would fully expect that a monotonous diet leads to…

Given how many kids are told to just "shut up and eat it" - and/or didn't have extreme pickiness but got DX'ed perhaps as an adult - I'd say there's a ton of research required to even suggest this as a plausible cause (even for a limited number of cases). It might make things worse, but I highly doubt it's causative .

DX?

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#138

Post by mbessette »

NooneAtAll3 wrote: post #137
user_7832 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given how many kids are told to just "shut up and eat it" - and/or didn't have extreme pickiness but got DX'ed perhaps as an adult - I'd say there's a ton of research required to even suggest this as a plausible cause (even for a limited number of cases). It might make things worse, but I highly doubt it's causative .

DX?

Diagnosed

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#139

Post by [deleted] »

NooneAtAll3 wrote: post #137
user_7832 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given how many kids are told to just "shut up and eat it" - and/or didn't have extreme pickiness but got DX'ed perhaps as an adult - I'd say there's a ton of research required to even suggest this as a plausible cause (even for a limited number of cases). It might make things worse, but I highly doubt it's causative .

DX?

[deleted]

Re: Fecal transplants for autism deliver success in clinical trials (2019)

#140

Post by mrgoldenbrown »

SoftTalker wrote: post #110
smallnix wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine the factor overlooked is the nasty but nutritional hospital food they got when receiving the transplant (assuming they got hospitalized).

Doesn't seem like something that would require an inpatient stay.

In my experience (instant cure for recurrent c. diff) a fecal transplant is easier and simpler than a colonoscopy, which themselves are easy enough to be outpatient.
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