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Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

dailyprincetonian.com

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Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#471

Post by spuz »

traderj0e wrote: post #268
Krasnol wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't imagine why you would be so stupid to allow phones to exams. Is this normal in the US?

Usually the rule is you can't have a phone out of your pocket or backpack during a test. Students still have phones on them. If they disallowed that too, how would that work, an airport security style check going in?

When I had exams in the 90s we'd have to hand phones in at the start. If the phone was seen during the exam, your test would be forfeited. If the rules were that strict then, I can't imagine how they could be less strict now given how much more powerful phones are today.

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#472

Post by rayiner »

cameldrv wrote: post #448
rayiner wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a really good point. I do think the old ruling elite was in some ways more honest within the particular framework of their morality. But maybe that was easier when getting into Harvard meant being smart-ish from a prestigious family, instead of grinding to compete against not only everyone in America, but the biggest grinders and geniuses in India and China too.

It's wonderful that the American elite has broadened as much as it has in the past 70 years or so. With it though there was some load bearing social infrastructure that got demolished. When it was a little club, you had to think of your family's reputation in the club, and like you say there was a particular framework of their morality. When the elite franchise was expanded, one problem was that everyone in the elite…

The NYT had a through provoking article on this: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/05/opinion/george-bush-wasps...

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#473

Post by rayiner »

hattmall wrote: post #405
rayiner wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Parts of America still are high trust: https://qctimes.com/entertainment/dining/article_5371e735-53... When Lee Kuan Yew visited London for the first time after World War II, he was impressed by the fact that it had unattended newspaper stands where people were trusted to take a newspaper and leave money: https://youtu.be/b_6H26fpZp8 . As someone from a low trust society, I fully concur with his assessment that this…

These sort of unmanned roadside stands are all over the southern US.

In major cities? LKY was talking about an unmanned newspaper stand and cash box in Trafalgar Square. Would that work in Times Square today?

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#474

Post by scenario_tech »

cameldrv wrote: post #445
bluefirebrand wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We do zero tolerance for so many things but integrity is the one thing that misses it for some reason Look at the type of people in positions of power these days? If we enforced any kind of integrity they would be screwed, but since they're in charge they can undermine policies that would hold them accountable as much as they like

Having integrity in elite colleges helps society. If people graduate from these places by cheating, and they see others graduating by cheating, cheating becomes a norm in elite society. If students are observed to be honest, and those that aren't are usually caught and punished, the graduates leave with a norm of honesty.

Do we live on the same planet?

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#475

Post by s5300 »

expedition32 wrote: post #292
hcurtiss wrote: post #2

Princeton is a strange place. What on earth could be the objection to proctoring? I'd much rather have a proctor than have to narc on a classmate. And even then, the proctor just reports the matter to a student-run body? Wild.

I would never NARC on someone shoplifting or dealing drugs but cheating on exams? Yeah no fuck you we're not India here. That's your future cardiologist.

[dead]

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#476

Post by danaris »

hammock wrote: post #380
busyant wrote: post #346

I was a grad student @ Princeton a handful of decades ago. I was a TA for a few classes and, given the honor code, we did not proctor the exams for undergrads. We just handed them out (left the room) and returned to collect them at the end. - One of the exams in a course that I TAed had 5 free-response questions. - There were also 5 TAs in that class, so we un-stapled the exams and each TA graded one question (for co…

There is an easy solution to Princeton’s problem, and it’s to have an honor system with a backbone. The way honor historically worked. At my private high school, and at my university (although they later gutted it), we had a “single sanction” honor code. That is, if you were caught lying, cheating, or stealing - in any way, and in or out of school, though usually it was in - you were immediately expelled. No mitigati…

"Zero tolerance" policies like that are much more prone to the kind of excessive leniency in application that's described, precisely because the penalty for being found to have cheated is so very high.

In those cases, the academic integrity committee is much more likely to demand a very high standard of proof of cheating, and it can ironically result in more people getting away with it again and again, where, in a system with (say) a "three strikes" policy, they might be more likely to be expelled, because the committee would not hesitate to give them their first and second strikes—and after that, they're clearly a repeat offender.

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#477

Post by throwaway198846 »

Longlius wrote: post #355
throwaway198846 wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When was the USA a high trust society?

Given your username, you're not going to like the answer to that question.

What do you think my username mean? Some kind of a dog whistle? In reality it is me misremembering 196884 from monstrous moonshine.

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#478

Post by vjk800 »

marsten wrote: post #373
busyant wrote: post #346

I was a grad student @ Princeton a handful of decades ago. I was a TA for a few classes and, given the honor code, we did not proctor the exams for undergrads. We just handed them out (left the room) and returned to collect them at the end. - One of the exams in a course that I TAed had 5 free-response questions. - There were also 5 TAs in that class, so we un-stapled the exams and each TA graded one question (for co…

Academic integrity committees at prestigious schools are horribly lax. They want these types of issues to go away quietly. I have a friend who in college had another student take his test from the "complete" pile, erase my friend's name, and put on his own instead. It was only through blind luck that my friend figured it out. He, the TA, and the professor reported it – with smoking gun proof – but nothing happened. T…

> Academic integrity committees at prestigious schools are horribly lax. They want these types of issues to go away quietly.

Yes, because the working model is that the students are there because they want to learn. And they are paying for the professors to teach them. If they cheat in classes, they are really just cheating themselves, and this should be no concern to the staff.

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#479

Post by FabCH »

traderj0e wrote: post #274
yeahwhatever10 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume they are referring to systems like TPG in Geneva. Basically you buy a pass and when you get on an off a bus or street car there is no checking of payment it is just assumed everyone is "honoring" the agreement to pay. Every once and a while transit cops will board and check that everyone has a pass/has paid somehow and if you get caught not paying it can affect your ability to rent housing etc.

"if you get caught not paying it can affect your ability to rent housing etc" What's a realistic outcome for someone who gets caught, they have to pay more for housing or they become homeless?

The comment was exaggerated.

If you are caught, you get a big fine, 150$-ish and if you pay it nothing will change.

However, if you get caught again or don’t pay the fine, it’s not a misdemeanor, it’s a felony. You will be caught at the Schengen border and flagged as a fugitive and get a Schengen ban. Or if you are a CH or EU resident you will be summoned by the court for a court case and you could go to jail. Most likely you’ll get a 1000$+ fine.

The housing comes in when you try to rent a new place and the landlord asks „are you a felon?“ and you can’t say no anymore.

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#480

Post by blitzar »

onemoresoop wrote: post #363
busyant wrote: post #346

I was a grad student @ Princeton a handful of decades ago. I was a TA for a few classes and, given the honor code, we did not proctor the exams for undergrads. We just handed them out (left the room) and returned to collect them at the end. - One of the exams in a course that I TAed had 5 free-response questions. - There were also 5 TAs in that class, so we un-stapled the exams and each TA graded one question (for co…

That student was shameless for success. I’m sure she has navigated her way through plenty of institutions by now, confusing getting away with it for being clever.

Sounds like 30 under 30 material.
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