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EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

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Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#301

Post by Lutger »

wackget wrote: post #148
jrflo wrote: post #118

I heard someone on a podcast call social media algorithms "the modern-day cigarette" and that really resonated with me. These companies know their product is addictive and bad for users, but they keep pushing it anyways. Like cigarettes, it's bad for everyone, not just kids. I made an algorithm blocker for Safari because of that and it's actually crazy how much more pleasant social media is if you don't have recommen…

The modern-day cigarette is such a perfect metaphor for social media. A cabal of unfathomably wealthy companies spreading their harmful products across the world; making them as addictive as possible while actively burying the research which proves how harmful they are. I truly hope one day we'll look back on social media and smartphone use the same way we regard smoking.

And we still let tobacco companies spread their products, which are practically speaking as harmful as they ever were, maybe even more so considering their environmental impact as well.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#302

Post by dylan604 »

achenet wrote: post #222
afavour wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah they try to restrict what we can do. We oldschool people call this fascism. Come on, this is an absurd statement. Governments regulate what people can do, yes. It’s part of their role. It’s why I can’t sell tainted meat on the street. It’s a good thing. Of course there is a line you can cross where the control becomes excessive but “the government sets rules around what people can do, that’s fascism!” is absur…

Yes. Fascism isn't government making laws, fascism is "we're the superior race, kill anyone who disagrees". I wouldn't call this move fascism, even if can be considered a bit heavy handed.

No, fascism is a comedian is making jokes about me and my wife that I don't like and that comedian should be fired while the company that broadcasts his show should lose their government issued license.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#303

Post by naravara »

Aurornis wrote: post #275
naravara wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No they should have to pick every time whether they want to be in follower mode or discovery mode. Dismissing concerns as “the angry mob” is richly ironic considering the entire objection is that recommendation algorithms seem precisely tuned to foster angry mob dynamics. So yeah it will make the angry mob happy because it will be removing the primary mechanism for inciting angry mobs. People here know that they have…

> considering the entire objection is that recommendation algorithms seem precisely tuned to foster angry mob dynamics. That actually wasn’t the objection in the article we’re discussing at all. The objection is that recommendation algorithms show people more content they want to view, which leads vulnerable people (kids in this case) to consume more content.

More of what they want to view by showing a feed of largely inflammatory content that targets easily risible emotions that encourage commenting and interacting, which makes people keep coming back to argue more. The mob dynamics are part of the addiction loop.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#304

Post by skrebbel »

Aurornis wrote: post #156
jrflo wrote: post #118

I heard someone on a podcast call social media algorithms "the modern-day cigarette" and that really resonated with me. These companies know their product is addictive and bad for users, but they keep pushing it anyways. Like cigarettes, it's bad for everyone, not just kids. I made an algorithm blocker for Safari because of that and it's actually crazy how much more pleasant social media is if you don't have recommen…

If you didn’t notice, this comment is an ad for a paid app trying to capitalize on social media anger. I respect the hustle, but this is not a neutral comment on the topic due to the financial interest. There are many free alternative plugins for targeting social media feeds if someone wants to filter these.

I always liked about HN that we'd be OK with people plugging their products so long as it was on-topic and not all too shameless. After all, it's a site frequented by entrepreneurs, we all know how hard it is to get a product off the ground.

IMO this comment (also before the link was removed) fit that bill perfectly and I'd encourage the author to share the link anyway.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#305

Post by NickC25 »

tt24 wrote: post #296
NickC25 wrote: post #206

Just do what China does, how fucking hard is it? They have 4x, almost 5x the population of the US. STEM or verifiable educational content only. Have a review team and an AI that moderates content. No politics, no stupid dances, no monetization of content, no slop, and only credentialed people can post on certain topics (ie a delivery driver shouldn't make posts on theoretical mathematics).

What you described sounds like an authoritarian hellscape and the suggestion would be met with laughter in any civilized country.

It's what happens in China with Tiktok. The Party said Tiktok needed to have educational content instead of stupid content. Tiktok complied.

The CCP may be many bad things, but they don't fuck around when it comes to education and making sure their youth aren't wasting their youth on stupid dance videos.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#306

Post by AshleyGrant »

kyledrake wrote: post #252
AshleyGrant wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Depression is real, I'm experiencing it right now reading these comments. No, you aren't. You are trivializing what Depression actually is by making flippant comments like that. You're also letting everyone know that you are utterly ignorant to what Depression actually is. Do better.

You're mad at me for being flippant about depression while you're being flippant about social media, pot calling the kettle black. I'm not the one that started flattening every bad habit or unhealthy technology into "basically cigarettes and heroin". If everything addictive is treated as morally and medically equivalent to hard opioid abuse or crippling nicotine addiction, then the language we use to talk about actua…

> You're mad at me for being flippant about depression while you're being flippant about social media, pot calling the kettle black.

Where did I do that?

I stopped reading your comment after that since you accused me of saying stuff I never said, so whatever you wrote is unworthy of my attention.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#307

Post by alkonaut »

Aurornis wrote: post #280
alkonaut wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Hacker News is a site that presents data by algorithm Does it though? I mean by "algorithm" in this context we mean "personalized algorithm meant to maximize engagement and retention". Not e.g. "sort by upvotes and decay by time" or even "filter content based on coarse user location". Does HN show me a different front page than everyone else based on which articles I have read or upvoted? That would make me feel wo…

> Does it though? I mean by "algorithm" in this context we mean "personalized algorithm meant to maximize engagement and retention". I addressed that in the second half of my comment already. But yes, HN qualifies as a site that displays by algorithm. If you mean personalized recommendation algorithm then it’s important to call that out. The last thing we want is regulation so broad that it catches every site that ra…

No one _ever_ even considers "algorithms" in the CS sense here (such as "sorting"), and even bringing that notion up would be deliberately dumbing down the discussion (yet it keeps happening in this thread over-and-over-again because people are for some reason very "well ackshually sorting is an algorithm").

"Algorithm" in this context is very clear what it is. It is not what the word means in Computer Science or in general. Just from the context and without any clarification needed "algorithms" in social media means "addictive personalized feeds".

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#308

Post by tencentshill »

achenet wrote: post #227
tencentshill wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The algorithm is not personalized. It's the same for every user. No issue there.

The facebook/meta algo might be same for all users, but it had different inputs for each user. HN, on the other hand, everyone has the same front page. If I like a post I can favorite it to 'bookmark' it, but HN won't modify my front page based on what I favorite, whereas facebook will. I think the GP's argument is, when it comes to social media, "one size fits all" might be less addictive than "custom made" :)

Thats what I was saying. Referring to HN, not facebook.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#309

Post by veeti »

xigoi wrote: post #194
Aurornis wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present Hacker News is a site that presents data by algorithm. Under your definition, Hacker News goes away, too. A more accurate framing would be that they’re going after personalized recommendation algorithms. It’s not obvious that offering a recommendation algorithm would mean that the site is no lo…

> Under your definition, Hacker News goes away, too. It doesn’t have to go away, just switch to chronological sorting.

Sorting is not an algorithm?

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#310

Post by cindyllm »

Aurornis wrote: post #131
bogwog wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Addictive, unless we're talking about a chemical substance or something like that, is a subjective thing. What makes you say that? It's well known that the addictive patterns in these apps trigger dopamine the same way drugs do. In a sense, dopamine is the "chemical substance" central to the addiction. Heroine and algorithms are just different ways to get it. https://med.stanford.edu/news/insights/2021/10/addictive…

Everything you do “triggers dopamine”. Reading HN triggers dopamine. Eating breakfast triggers dopamine. Dopamine is also important for movement and many other things. This is a lame reduction of brain chemistry that has been used to push agendas. Dopamine is not equivalent do addiction.

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