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EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

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Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#71

Post by soVeryTired »

stingraycharles wrote: post #33
andybak wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of complex leglislation already exists in many areas of the law: revenue collection being the most obvious one. We could choose to treat "societal harm" the way we treat "tax collection". I'm not saying there aren't infinite edge cases and second-order effects - but we tolerate those already for many things. I'm not pretending this is simple or even desirable - I'm merely stating it's possible if we want to…

Great example. These companies are already experts at circumventing taxes, what makes you think they can’t weasel their way around some arbitrary written law? Just look at the malicious compliance that Apple and Google have around the App Store stuff, they’ll find a way to comply with the law and implement different addictive dark patterns. I’m not saying that I disagree that these companies need to be regulated, I a…

I have a feeling taxes are possible to circumvent only because a government tends to have one arm that wants to collect taxes, and another that wants to reduce them to encourage certain outcomes (like having a business setting up shop within its borders).

The US may have this dual incentive structure since it wants to build its tech giants while limiting their control, but the EU doesn't. The arrival of a foreign tech social media giant might make the legislation a bit more palatable to pass.

It will undoubtedly be complex to regulate all dark patterns away. But there are a few obvious, easy wins. It'd be a shame to make perfect the enemy of good.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#72

Post by pessimizer »

schnitzelstoat wrote: post #62
conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

So the user opens the app - what is the first video you show them? How does 'the user decide' from the millions upon millions of videos there are? If the user can search like in Youtube then how do you rank the results? That's also an algorithm. It isn't pretty easy to solve at all.

This seems to be consciously dishonest. Show them "most recent" or "most upvoted" or "A to Z." Pretending like this is hard is bizarre. People have always selected sort and filter algorithms, until companies started taking them away.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#73

Post by noprocrasted »

schnitzelstoat wrote: post #62
conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

So the user opens the app - what is the first video you show them? How does 'the user decide' from the millions upon millions of videos there are? If the user can search like in Youtube then how do you rank the results? That's also an algorithm. It isn't pretty easy to solve at all.

> what is the first video you show them

Whatever is latest posted across their followings/subscriptions?

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#74

Post by bootsabota »

stingraycharles wrote: post #33
andybak wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This kind of complex leglislation already exists in many areas of the law: revenue collection being the most obvious one. We could choose to treat "societal harm" the way we treat "tax collection". I'm not saying there aren't infinite edge cases and second-order effects - but we tolerate those already for many things. I'm not pretending this is simple or even desirable - I'm merely stating it's possible if we want to…

Great example. These companies are already experts at circumventing taxes, what makes you think they can’t weasel their way around some arbitrary written law? Just look at the malicious compliance that Apple and Google have around the App Store stuff, they’ll find a way to comply with the law and implement different addictive dark patterns. I’m not saying that I disagree that these companies need to be regulated, I a…

Yeah it’s a tough situation to figure out.

But here’s the real problem: people don’t care. And I say that as someone who hasn’t used social media since 2014.

My observation of people’s behavior indicates that when all is said and done, people don’t care—they would rather get the endorphins from posting, liking, following, etc.

But the solution is to allow people to control their own algorithm, and to have open source solutions where communities manage their own social network.

It’s not the algorithm that is the problem it is that people don’t have the choice to curate their own content.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#75

Post by eowln »

palata wrote: post #55
eowln wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>privacy-preserving age verification No such thing.

That's my problem with the debate: people like you seem very proud to be uninformed. It exists as much as end-to-end encryption exists. It's cryptography, it's not up to debate. But people who have no clue are very vocal about their belief that it does not exist.

There are no active implementations that do not suffer from severe issues.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#76

Post by jampekka »

lp4v4n wrote: post #58

I don't agree with this. Addictive, unless we're talking about a chemical substance or something like that, is a subjective thing. At some point, books, movies, comics, etc, etc might have been considered addictive. Social networks in general should be banned for underage people, that's the thing. And the social network itself should be liable for verifying the age its users, like a nightclub is liable for people who…

Addiction at least is quite straightforward to differentiate from otherwise engaging things by whether it causes significant harmful effects. E.g. per Wikipedia "Addiction is a neuropsychological disorder characterized by a persistent and intense urge to use a drug or engage in a behavior that produces an immediate psychological reward, despite substantial harm and other negative consequences."

Addictive would be then something that (for a substantial portion of population) has a tendency to cause addiction.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#77

Post by boringg »

hnthrowaway0315 wrote: post #29

But they are so profitable, and we need them to track people around and create a police state efficiently. Ah let's keep them but just fine them as well for the show.

What else will fund the AI boom but computationally expensive video AI?

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#78

Post by denismi »

schnitzelstoat wrote: post #62
conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

So the user opens the app - what is the first video you show them? How does 'the user decide' from the millions upon millions of videos there are? If the user can search like in Youtube then how do you rank the results? That's also an algorithm. It isn't pretty easy to solve at all.

The first unwatched video from the user's followed/subscribed channels. Chronological, reverse chronological, sorted alphabetically, by the user's channel prioritisation, by likes, by views... whatever the user chooses. And then an end of feed.

For new users? A search bar and a set of (human? AI?) curated seed recommendations that the platform is comfortable with being held liable for.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#80

Post by rwmj »

conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

You'll need to solve the dark pattern where a new account opens on a blank page with a box saying "Would you like us to suggest what you watch here?"
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