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EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

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Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#31

Post by andybak »

stingraycharles wrote: post #25
conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

This is one of those things that don’t translate to legal reality very well, as then you have to define “what is an algorithm”. Is adding advertisements an algorithm? Is including likes an algorithm? Is automatically starting the next video after a previous one has finished an algorithm? Is infinite scroll an algorithm? Etc

This kind of complex leglislation already exists in many areas of the law: revenue collection being the most obvious one. We could choose to treat "societal harm" the way we treat "tax collection".

I'm not saying there aren't infinite edge cases and second-order effects - but we tolerate those already for many things. I'm not pretending this is simple or even desirable - I'm merely stating it's possible if we want to do it.

My biggest fear is that (like the UK Online safety act) this acts to favour the huge corporations because they are the only ones that can afford a team of lawyers. Any legislation should aim to carve out exceptions to avoid indirectly helping monopolies.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#32

Post by stingraycharles »

randunel wrote: post #28
stingraycharles wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those things that don’t translate to legal reality very well, as then you have to define “what is an algorithm”. Is adding advertisements an algorithm? Is including likes an algorithm? Is automatically starting the next video after a previous one has finished an algorithm? Is infinite scroll an algorithm? Etc

Everything other than sorting the list of entities by a standard measurement unit (time, length, mass, temperature, amount) needs to be covered by this law. The moment you add other entities to the list (e.g. ads inbetween posts), then it's also subject to the same restrictions.

This effectively means “every online platform ever” and would also have included MySpace and the OG Yahoo etc, and as such would not really single out the truly bad actors.

And then we’ll end up with with another cookie-banner style law which had good intentions but actually missed the point entirely.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#33

Post by stingraycharles »

andybak wrote: post #31
stingraycharles wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of those things that don’t translate to legal reality very well, as then you have to define “what is an algorithm”. Is adding advertisements an algorithm? Is including likes an algorithm? Is automatically starting the next video after a previous one has finished an algorithm? Is infinite scroll an algorithm? Etc

This kind of complex leglislation already exists in many areas of the law: revenue collection being the most obvious one. We could choose to treat "societal harm" the way we treat "tax collection". I'm not saying there aren't infinite edge cases and second-order effects - but we tolerate those already for many things. I'm not pretending this is simple or even desirable - I'm merely stating it's possible if we want to…

Great example. These companies are already experts at circumventing taxes, what makes you think they can’t weasel their way around some arbitrary written law?

Just look at the malicious compliance that Apple and Google have around the App Store stuff, they’ll find a way to comply with the law and implement different addictive dark patterns.

I’m not saying that I disagree that these companies need to be regulated, I absolutely do. I just think it’s going to be a complicated process, and not “oh just ban everything that’s an algorithm”.

And I have absolutely 0 faith in companies like Meta willfully complying.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#34

Post by randunel »

stingraycharles wrote: post #32
randunel wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything other than sorting the list of entities by a standard measurement unit (time, length, mass, temperature, amount) needs to be covered by this law. The moment you add other entities to the list (e.g. ads inbetween posts), then it's also subject to the same restrictions.

This effectively means “every online platform ever” and would also have included MySpace and the OG Yahoo etc, and as such would not really single out the truly bad actors. And then we’ll end up with with another cookie-banner style law which had good intentions but actually missed the point entirely.

I stopped using facebook around 2015-ish, when they stopped allowing sorting by date. Prior to this, hi5 and the likes also allwoed sorting by date. So no, not every online platform ever.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#35

Post by Mashimo »

Pesthuf wrote: post #23

Tell me: why are these algorithms suddenly okay when the victim turns 18? They are bad for everyone and if you’re willing to regulate them, make them illegal to be used on anyone.

Just from this article it's not clear if the methods like endless scrolling or "watch next video" are going to be regulated based on user age or not.

It just says the platform who use such methods, often target kids.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#36

Post by 3form »

stingraycharles wrote: post #25
conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

This is one of those things that don’t translate to legal reality very well, as then you have to define “what is an algorithm”. Is adding advertisements an algorithm? Is including likes an algorithm? Is automatically starting the next video after a previous one has finished an algorithm? Is infinite scroll an algorithm? Etc

This doesn't differ much from the legal reality that I've seen. Terms need to be defined, yes. It will require work to do so. And that work should be done even if it's a bother.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#37

Post by orbital-decay »

stingraycharles wrote: post #25
conception wrote: post #19

This is pretty easy to solve. If you present data by algorithm, you are no longer an impartial common carrier and are liable for the content you present. If the user decides you don’t, ala social media 1.0.

This is one of those things that don’t translate to legal reality very well, as then you have to define “what is an algorithm”. Is adding advertisements an algorithm? Is including likes an algorithm? Is automatically starting the next video after a previous one has finished an algorithm? Is infinite scroll an algorithm? Etc

"Algorithm" is a method of selecting the content to display. You're listing presentation types, not selection types. Presentation has nothing to do with supervised selection. Selecting the next video in the infinite scroll would be the algorithm, not the infinite scrolling mechanism itself.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#38

Post by progval »

stingraycharles wrote: post #32
randunel wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything other than sorting the list of entities by a standard measurement unit (time, length, mass, temperature, amount) needs to be covered by this law. The moment you add other entities to the list (e.g. ads inbetween posts), then it's also subject to the same restrictions.

This effectively means “every online platform ever” and would also have included MySpace and the OG Yahoo etc, and as such would not really single out the truly bad actors. And then we’ll end up with with another cookie-banner style law which had good intentions but actually missed the point entirely.

It even includes email providers with a spam filter.

Re: EU to crack down on TikTok, Instagram's 'addictive design' targeting kids

#39

Post by palata »

Pesthuf wrote: post #23

Tell me: why are these algorithms suddenly okay when the victim turns 18? They are bad for everyone and if you’re willing to regulate them, make them illegal to be used on anyone.

Same as for the cigarette: it's a lot easier to regulate stuff for kids, because we as a society tend to agree that they need to be protected. Much harder to do with adults, because it is much less of a consensus.
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