Live data from Hacker News

A.I. note takers are making lawyers nervous

nytimes.com

141–150 of 204 posts

Re: A.I. note takers are making lawyers nervous

#141

The main point raised in the article is that these bots may void attorney client privileges. But the real danger with these IMO is that they're turning casual conversations into a permanent record, and one that will be completely discoverable in court, should the company get into trouble later.

> But the real danger with these IMO is that they're turning casual conversations into a permanent record, and one that will be completely discoverable in court, should the company get into trouble later.

The parts that aren’t privileged. On the other hand, perhaps the truth-seeking function of the justice system will be better equipped than before when we had to rely on (more) faulty human recollection.

Re: A.I. note takers are making lawyers nervous

#142

The main point raised in the article is that these bots may void attorney client privileges. But the real danger with these IMO is that they're turning casual conversations into a permanent record, and one that will be completely discoverable in court, should the company get into trouble later.

Plus they are super inaccurate. Gemini gets one of its three bullet subtly or very majorly wrong almost every time. Just a few weeks ago Gemini said we’re rolling out our payment setup in Russia. You know the place where we have 20+ sanctions packages on? We were talking about France in the meeting.

That's presumably great for legal exposure because it increases deniability

Re: A.I. note takers are making lawyers nervous

#143
post #76
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's a training issue, it's simply that there's no inherent "I don't know" in the transformer architecture unless it's really like something completely unknown, otherwise the nearest neighbor will be chosen and that will be whatever sounds similar or is relevant, even if it might cause a problem

The final output of the neural network part of an LLM is a vector with weights for every token, that is then usually softmaxed and picked from. Can we not quantify the uncertainty by looking at the distribution of weights of the top 10 options? Like we expect for a note-taking app that the top choice would be something like 98% certain, and if we see that the model gives a weight of 60% to "Russia" and 30% to "France…

I’ve looked at confidence outputs for the chosen words from several STT providers and it’s definitely so that low confidence indicate that there is a risk that it has misheard.

Not always though. Let’s say that someone is saying ”1 2 3 4 6 7 8” then it will happily write 5 in the middle and give it good confidence as based on the context, it is the only likely word. Varies between TTS providers though.

Basically, why they are so good in average is that they estimate what is said most often based on the context. The context being then not only the audio but what was transcribed previously.

And if you don’t want it to be based on what is most likely to be said in context and only based on the audio around 1 word it is going to be awfully wrong most of the time.

Re: A.I. note takers are making lawyers nervous

#144
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It'll just happen. Can't really fight technological progress.

Is it progress though?

Smaller, more capable, cheaper? Yes, it absolutely is progress.

The only question is whether everyone gets a slice, or it ends up locked down so only governments and corporations have access to it. Obivously I come down on the sousveillence side of the fence - it's the lesser of two evils. If it exists I want everyone to have it, and you can't stop it existing.

Re: A.I. note takers are making lawyers nervous

#145
post #56
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically, it will be harder to hide illegal and unethical stuff companies routinely engage in.

"If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him" - Cardinal Richelieu Be careful what you wish for. Particularly when it involves tech that often gets it very, very wrong.

Be real. Worry here by these layers and companies is not a false accusation.

It is true accusation and potential for success of it.

Re: A.I. note takers are making lawyers nervous

#146
Attorney here. I'm quite concerned that AI note-taking applications, if used by clients to keep track of conversations and meetings that would otherwise be privileged, might be jeopardizing their rights by doing so. I certainly have been advising clients myself, at least if I know them to be using AI for productivity or otherwise, not to use note-taking or chat tools during calls or meetings, or to discuss anything concerning legal matters with any AI chatbot or agent or tool, because it is all potentially discoverable under the rapidly evolving case law in this area.

Although I definitely think that any alternative approach would be fraught with legal peril, I strongly disagree that this SHOULD be the state of the law. AI note-keeping tools, chatbots, and other AI-generated services are not sentient beings, but most importantly, they are not natural or even artificial persons. The whole principle of waiver in the area of privilege is based on the notion that an otherwise private attorney-client communication, or document created that is covered by the attorney work-product doctrine, has been copied to or shared with a THIRD PARTY. A third party is a party, which at minimum is a legal or natural person -- perhaps a corporation or LLC, but not a computer, dolphin, chimpanzee, or chair. AI note-keeping tools, models, chatbots, etc., are obviously not natural persons (human beings), but they are also not even artificial persons. They cannot sue or be sued, own property, enter judgments or be held liable, or have any legally enforceable obligations. Legally, chatbots have no "standing" or personhood, even of the artificial sort assigned to corporations and LLCs (which, although not human, can sue or be sued, own property, obtain judgments, have legally enforceable obligations, etc.). There simply is no logical theory of waiver due to copying a third party that gets triggered by "conversing" with a chatbot.

The stronger argument I have seen, which Judge Rakoff cited about 6 weeks ago in an SDNY ruling, and that perhaps makes more sense (at least on its face), is to point to the ChatGPT or Claude Terms of Service. Those Terms make the contents of any chat histories between users and the AI service capable of being copied and utilized for training or other purposes. However, those terms of service are also quite similar to the same provisions often found in email and SMS text message providers, and for Zoom, Teams, WhatsApp, and plenty of other channels used by attorneys to communicate with clients. I haven't had the opportunity yet to contrast them, but I would be surprised if the software products routinely used to facilitate attorney-client conversations don't contain substantively similar if not identical provisions to the ones that Judge Rakoff found persuasive to deem privilege waived with respect to client-ChatGPT conversations. I've been trying cases for nearly 20 years across multiple jurisdictions and have never even seen anyone argue, at least not since the dawn of the email era at the very beginning of my career, that attorneys and clients who share privileged communications via email have waived the privilege because of Outlook's or Gmail's terms of service that say that the service can train on the contents of the emails for whatever reasons. In fact, I do recall that argument being made a long time ago, and I can say that it has been squarely rejected out of hand in every jurisdiction and court I have ever appeared. I don't know anyone who would even make such an argument today. (I'll distinguish the different case of an employee suing their employer but using the employer-issued email account to communicate with outside counsel about their employment claims; that scenario really is a waiver because the employee's contract with the employer typically includes a provision that the emails are owned by the employer and may be reviewed by them, which is very different than having an automated Gmail or Outlook script processing metadata or even data from massive numbers of emails.) In every jurisdiction I have ever appeared, the waiver of privilege only arises from copying a third party, not from using email, or text, or Teams, or Zoom, to communicate with a client in a manner that otherwise would be considered privileged but for the medium of communication. It is possible that under particular terms of service, a different result might be warranted, such as if the model also includes terms that say the engineers might read the actual contents of chat histories, but otherwise, the OpenAI or Claude Terms of Service seem like an awfully thin reed upon which to stack the entire weight of this theory of waiver.

This is not legal advice, and no attorney-client relationship is formed; I'm just stating my opinion while indicating that this is not the way I think the law should be headed.

Re: A.I. note takers are making lawyers nervous

#147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. The fact LLMs can also amplify existing closed-set research means even smaller shops can now search through a flood of documents to find smoking guns or critical evidence, much faster. I’ve been saying it since the mid-10s, but it’s worth repeating: data isn’t gold, it’s more like oxygen in a room in that the higher the concentration, the more likely it is to poison the inhabitants or explode with an errant spa…

What are you trying to get away with I wonder?

Probably nothing, he's just not naive. You would have to have the intelligence of a small child to legitimately believe that authorities are only ever acting in benevolence, never with ulterior motives, and that they can never make mistakes. It's a matter of risk analysis here; we want to minimize the risk of shit going wrong.

Re: A.I. note takers are making lawyers nervous

#148

Alternative to archive.is No Javascript, no CAPTCHA, no geoblocking, no DDoS directed at blog https://static.nytimes.com/narrated-articles/synthetic/artic...

Alternative to archive.is

Works where archive.is is blocked

Text-only, no DDoS directed at blog

   view-source:https://www.nytimes.com/2026/05/09/business/dealbook/ai-notetakers-legal-risk.html
   Save as 1.htm
Something like

   egrep -o "(\"text\":\"[^\"]+)|(\"textAlign\":\"LEFT\")|(\"url\":\"[^\"]+)|(\"__typename\":\"TextInline\")" 1.htm \
   |sed '/\"url\":\"/{s/??.*//;s/$/\">/;s/.\{7\}//;s/.\{24\}//;};
         s/\"textAlign\":\"LEFT\"/

/g;/\"text\":\"/s/.\{8\}//' \ |sed '1s/^//' > 2.htm rm 1.htm firefox ./2.htm

NB. Javascript and CSS interpreters are needed only for Datadome challenge. The following DNS data, e.g., A RRs, are required

   ct.captcha-delivery.com
   geo.captcha-delivery.com
   www.nytimes.com
   g1.nyt.com 
No other DNS data is required

Re: A.I. note takers are making lawyers nervous

#149
I built https://getminute.me to help solve this issue, transcription, summaries, chapters all done on device using local AI models for Mac OS and iOS.

Seems to have had a good reception so far within the legal world who was my original target market for this.

Is it as powerful as the services using insane compute? No. Does it do a pretty decent job without using a third party? Yes.

Re: A.I. note takers are making lawyers nervous

#150

Some companies want no records at all, see: "2028 – A Dystopian Story By Jack Ganssle": http://www.ganssle.com/articles/2028adystopianstory.htm Known as ’The Rule of 26’, which is sometimes given as a reason NOT to keep engineering notebooks etc. By Federal Rule 26 you are guilty if you did not volunteer the records before they are requested. Including any backups. From Cornel Law: LII Federal Rules of Civil Procedur…

"2028 – A Dystopian Story By Jack Ganssle"

If Mark Z was exactly himself but not successful and filled with resentment, he would write something like this. The smugness, the egotism of that story. It's so obvious that engineer types, like almost all middle class variations, are part of the problem and somehow think they are the solution. Bleh.

Post reply on HN