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Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

janrosenow.substack.com

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Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#21

Post by empiricus »

pydry wrote: post #11
PaulKeeble wrote: post #7

The past few years has also had Solar continuing to decrease in price so its increasingly going to be the primary choice. On top of that battery prices have been plummeting too so that now Solar + battery is cheaper than other options like Nuclear and especially Gas. Most of the EU will be running on Wind and Solar in the coming years, its a change that is now rapidly occuring based entirely on the rare economics. So…

1/5th the price of nuclear. Probably when combined with batteries it is half the price. There are some colder areas in northern europe especially where solar doesnt work as well but they also tend to be better served for hydro (which can also store power).

So sad we could not apply economy of scale for nuclear... The main reason solar and batteries are so cheap is economy of scale.

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#22

Post by joe_mamba »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #18
joe_mamba wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that' doesn't always scan. Austria has a lot of wind, sun and hydro so its energy prices should be in line with Sweden, Norway, Denmark amongst the cheapest in Europe, and yet it's routinely amongst the more expensive in the EU.

Trading across borders seems to be a part of this story. If your local price is high you can import, if it's low you can export. If you're at the end of a grid and/or your transmission capacity is limited your price has the possibility to go higher or lower without that damping mechanism. Electricitymaps has a pricing layer which seems to show central Europe moving in sync when I randomly check it: https://app.electr…

So energy in Spain is cheap because they produce a lot but can't sell a lot easily, and Austria/Central Europe is expensive because they sell their domestic energy too easily?

If this is what you meant, then it sounds like an argument against free trade, if it means you keep ending up with the short stick.

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#23

Post by ricardobayes »

badpun wrote: post #16
pydry wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1/5th the price of nuclear. Probably when combined with batteries it is half the price. There are some colder areas in northern europe especially where solar doesnt work as well but they also tend to be better served for hydro (which can also store power).

How much would it cost to build out batteries which cover entire continent's electricy needs for say three weeks (as there can be 2-3 week lulls of no wind and no sun in Europe in the winter)? Cause that sounds like a lot of batteries. Not to mention, if a freak 4 week lull occurs, we'll go back to Middle Ages for a week.

Solar still produces even in overcast conditions, during the day. If it's light/medium overcast, most of which Germany usually is it still produces 50-80% of nominal. It only really doesn't produce anything at night or when it snows.

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#24

Post by fundatus »

alecco wrote: post #2

> Damian Cortinas, chair of ENTSO-E’s board, told the Financial Times that “the issue is not about renewables” but about the grid’s ability to manage “fast voltage variations” that can destabilise the system. Unusual oscillations triggered a cascade of plant disconnections, and grid managers lost control. The real lesson is not that Spain has gone too far on wind and solar, YES THEY DID, they went as far as making nu…

> made the EU leadership turn and now they want nuclear

They don't _actually_ want nuclear, luckily it's just lip service. Because it doesn't solve the problem surfaced by the US-Israel-Iran war: You'd still be dependent on other countries for your (nuclear) fuel needs.

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#25

Post by tonyedgecombe »

empiricus wrote: post #21
pydry wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1/5th the price of nuclear. Probably when combined with batteries it is half the price. There are some colder areas in northern europe especially where solar doesnt work as well but they also tend to be better served for hydro (which can also store power).

So sad we could not apply economy of scale for nuclear... The main reason solar and batteries are so cheap is economy of scale.

I don’t think we have really tried. At least not in the last couple of decades.

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#26

Post by laurencerowe »

aftbit wrote: post #4
alecco wrote: post #2

> Damian Cortinas, chair of ENTSO-E’s board, told the Financial Times that “the issue is not about renewables” but about the grid’s ability to manage “fast voltage variations” that can destabilise the system. Unusual oscillations triggered a cascade of plant disconnections, and grid managers lost control. The real lesson is not that Spain has gone too far on wind and solar, YES THEY DID, they went as far as making nu…

I agree with you on a few points: 1. Stable power grids are much easier with a mix of generation sources that includes substantial rotating mass and baseload generators. 2. Nuclear is awesome from a climate change and energy security point of view, and it would be amazing if it were cheaper or more valued. When power was primarily generated by thermal plants with big rotating masses, we got frequency control implicit…

> By and large, we don't store solar energy for use overnight - we store it (or really any energy) for use in smoothing short demand spikes.

This really depends on the amount of battery storage installed. In California we now see battery discharging through to the morning.

https://engaging-data.com/california-electricity-generation/

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#27

Post by pyrale »

The author's point is that Spain's electricity is very cheap compared to other European countries thanks to its great electricity mix, etc.

The reality is that Spain's electricity is cheap because it is relatively insulated from Europe's core network, because its interconnections with other countries are limited. In financial words, there is a spread with the rest of Europe because the ways to arbitrage that spread are extremely limited. If Spain was located near Germany and well interconnected, their prices would look like Germany's. And while cheap energy is pictured by op as a good thing, Spain understands very well that higher prices are good for its renewables industry, and is pressing for more interconnections[1].

The overall tone of the article feels like the author is here to extoll the virtues of renewables.

[1]: https://www.ft.com/content/8e94079c-585f-11e4-b331-00144feab...

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#28

Post by tonfa »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #18
joe_mamba wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that' doesn't always scan. Austria has a lot of wind, sun and hydro so its energy prices should be in line with Sweden, Norway, Denmark amongst the cheapest in Europe, and yet it's routinely amongst the more expensive in the EU.

Trading across borders seems to be a part of this story. If your local price is high you can import, if it's low you can export. If you're at the end of a grid and/or your transmission capacity is limited your price has the possibility to go higher or lower without that damping mechanism. Electricitymaps has a pricing layer which seems to show central Europe moving in sync when I randomly check it: https://app.electr…

And the counter intuitive thing is that people in countries with lots of renewables and not so many external links (e.g. Scandinavia with hydro) might be against adding more links since it will increase electricity prices.

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#29

Post by miohtama »

pyrale wrote: post #27

The author's point is that Spain's electricity is very cheap compared to other European countries thanks to its great electricity mix, etc. The reality is that Spain's electricity is cheap because it is relatively insulated from Europe's core network, because its interconnections with other countries are limited. In financial words, there is a spread with the rest of Europe because the ways to arbitrage that spread a…

Hmm. Everyone should just disconnect Germany, let them freeze, and enjoy cheap electricity?

Re: Spain has become one of Europe’s cheapest power markets

#30

Post by ZeroGravitas »

joe_mamba wrote: post #22
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trading across borders seems to be a part of this story. If your local price is high you can import, if it's low you can export. If you're at the end of a grid and/or your transmission capacity is limited your price has the possibility to go higher or lower without that damping mechanism. Electricitymaps has a pricing layer which seems to show central Europe moving in sync when I randomly check it: https://app.electr…

So energy in Spain is cheap because they produce a lot but can't sell a lot easily, and Austria/Central Europe is expensive because they sell their domestic energy too easily? If this is what you meant, then it sounds like an argument against free trade, if it means you keep ending up with the short stick.

Economists would say that the money coming in outweighs the higher costs and therefore you could redistribute that money and everyone comes out ahead.

Whether that happens in real life is a different question.

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