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Getting arrested in Japan

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Re: Getting arrested in Japan

#211

Post by EA-3167 »

bradchris wrote: post #192
nihonde wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

You clearly have a different view of “innocent until proven guilty” than most US citizens, which is fine, maybe you aren’t one, but that line of rhetoric is going to be anathema to most people on this website. Not that the US criminal system isn’t its own complete mess, but thank God for the concept of bail (going about your life outside of jail until trial or dismissal, within certain parameters) and right to see a…

> You clearly have a different view of “innocent until proven guilty”

Most people don't really understand it, and even the ones who do often have personal exceptions driven by emotion. The idea that you need to defend the guilty to protect the innocent is alien to a lot of people. Japan takes the lack of that assumption a step further though, since it's a society based on strict compliance to cultural norms... for better and for worse.

Having said all of that, most of these systems do a credible job of distinguishing the innocent from the guilty, although there's always more to do on that front. If you've ever worked anywhere near the court system you start to notice that people who make it through the system all of the way to a trial are frequently guilty and even more frequently recidivist.

Most people aren't criminals and never commit a serious offense, but speaking for myself I don't think the "sorting" the system does has to be anywhere close to as brutal and impersonal as it often is in many countries including Japan.

Re: Getting arrested in Japan

#212

Post by EA-3167 »

nihonde wrote: post #181
kelnos wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter what her charge was. Even (alleged/suspected) serial murderers and rapists should be treated humanely and not experience psychological torture. And also remember this treatment is at the point where they haven't been charged with anything, haven't been tried in court, and haven't been convicted. The US's justice system is certainly lacking in many, many ways, but wow, this is barbaric. And it's desi…

[flagged]

If the only way that Japan can be clean and orderly is by abusing people for months at a time only to drop charges, you have to ask if maybe that's a problem. The conviction rate and reliance on often questionably obtained confessions is also a problem that's hardly only noticed by outsiders.

Re: Getting arrested in Japan

#213

Post by idle_zealot »

Aurornis wrote: post #130
ninjin wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's frustrating to try to interpret these stories with a lot of writing and video describing everything except the crucial detail about what the charges were for. Is it really a crucial detail though? As someone having lived in Japan for a long time, I see no reason why we can not discuss the fact that civil rights and detention treatment in Japan are lacking without resorting to "Do they deserve it in light of wh…

> Is it really a crucial detail though? Literally the central trigger point of the story. > For the record, I have not watched any video or read anything else about this individual. Nor do I intend to. Then I can see why you're not interested in the details

> Literally the central trigger point of the story

The fact that you and other insist on this really gets at the crux of this whole problem. There are two notable positions on criminality and punishment: yours, which is broadly that the justice system exists, at least in part, to deliver righteous punishment on the deserving, and the position of those appalled by the treatment here, which is that the purpose of the justice system is primarily to protect people, and then to deliver predictable, proportionate punishment of those found guilty to disincentivize criminal behavior. If you think that torture of someone detained but not found guilty might be justifiable if they're accused of a sufficiently heinous crime then you have an illiberal position that can and will be used to enable abuse of the criminal justice system to inflict extralegal punishment on anyone for any reason.

Re: Getting arrested in Japan

#214

Post by EMIRELADERO »

cjbgkagh wrote: post #201
EMIRELADERO wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you believe mantaining an acceptable level of peacefulness requires torture?

I don’t accept your premise that the Japanese system is torture.

Extreme control of movement and sleep including deprivation of it for arbitrary amounts, constant lighting, no outside time, nothing to do for months at a time, lack of nutritious food, all those things in combination constitue torture under most modern definitions.

Re: Getting arrested in Japan

#215

Post by dang »

applfanboysbgon wrote: post #123
dang wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You* are responsible for following the rules regardless of what others are doing. A bad article (if that's what it is—I haven't looked yet) doesn't make it ok to break them, and a bad thread doesn't either. (* I don't mean you personally of course, but all of us)

I understand that, but I would like to note from a human perspective that when seeing an article full of misleading and exaggerated claims bashing your country as a whole and comparing it disfavorably to the author's own, it's hard to react in a perfectly emotionless manner. All the more so when the thread is full of comments piling on even more, taking it all as fact and condemning it as a 'fascist dictatorship'. Th…

Yes. That is super hard from a human perspective and I agree that it would be nice if the comments were less awful.

We're not asking you (or anyone) to react in an emotionless manner—quite the opposite. The trick is to express the emotions in a somewhat different way - more sharing, less discharging, if that makes sense.

As for the article - I only skimmed it in the most superficial way but I think "what it's like to be in prison in Japan (from a Westerner's point of view)" was more or less certain to be interesting to this community, which is insatiable for things it hasn't heard about before.

Btw - you absolutely don't have to answer this, but are you Japanese? That's what the phrase "bashing your country as a whole" seemed to imply to me, and for some reason I was surprised. I guess it's because I talk a lot with HN's Japanese users (mostly by email) and your mode of expression is somewhat different. Normally I don't pry like this, so feel free not to respond!

Re: Getting arrested in Japan

#216

Post by aloisklink »

dnnddidiej wrote: post #61

Tl;dr: you are in effectively the hole (but stricter) for anything between 1 day and months, without charges. It is torture. As in actual torture. Fact check... anyone can confirm this treatment is standard in Japan?

You can try looking at this manga posted by a Japanese person that was detained for marijuana possession https://xcancel.com/kime_neko/status/1634511023167381504. It's in Japanese, but you can use a machine translator and/or look at the drawings.

The facilities and food look slightly better (maybe because it's a detention centre in Tokyo), but it mostly matches. Although the mangaka seemed to have a much more positive outlook on it, probably because they could read all the Japanese books they wanted and speak to their cellmates in Japanese.

Re: Getting arrested in Japan

#217

Post by machomaster »

kQq9oHeAz6wLLS wrote: post #128
Waterluvian wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> loud but normal argument you might see in any big box store in the US. I always assumed this kind of behaviour was cherry picked on social media. How “normal” is it actually?!

It's quite rare. Except at Waffle House.

And at Walmart. And at McDonalds. And at Burger King. And at...

Bacically, it is not rare at all. Especially among certain American demographic.

Re: Getting arrested in Japan

#218

Post by roenxi »

nihonde wrote: post #181
kelnos wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter what her charge was. Even (alleged/suspected) serial murderers and rapists should be treated humanely and not experience psychological torture. And also remember this treatment is at the point where they haven't been charged with anything, haven't been tried in court, and haven't been convicted. The US's justice system is certainly lacking in many, many ways, but wow, this is barbaric. And it's desi…

[flagged]

Going by the article the authorities in Japan decided that she didn't need an official punishment, so in this case they don't seem to think it matters what her charge was since there wasn't enough evidence to make a case against her. And if someone has done something so terrible they can't be allowed to eat well or get a good nights sleep then the case shouldn't be dropped lightly.

Re: Getting arrested in Japan

#219

Post by naniwaduni »

kelnos wrote: post #185
wisty wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, it's seen as a God-given truth that no innocent person should ever be punished. Partly because it was founded (in part) by oppressed minorities fleeing states where the were constantly harassed by authorities. (Irony - the US's approach hardly fixed the issue). But is it OK to risk punishing a few innocent people if it greatly reduces the amount of suffering caused by crime?

> In the US, it's seen as a God-given truth that no innocent person should ever be punished. That's a rather rose-tinted view of criminal justice here... I do hear that sentiment a lot here, but it's just words, and as you sort of hint at, the reality doesn't match the words. > But is it OK to risk punishing a few innocent people if it greatly reduces the amount of suffering caused by crime? That's a big philosophica…

> I had a very visceral negative reaction to this story, and found it disappointing that someone would hold that opinion. But I suppose it's a lot easier to take that stance when it's not you or someone you care about being falsely accused and sent to prison.

I have to imagine that from her point of view, it's a lot easier to take the stance that you'd rather see guilty people go free than put an innocent person behind bars when it's not your neighborhood with the dangerous criminal gangs....

Re: Getting arrested in Japan

#220

Post by iamnothere »

tokkkie wrote: post #195

stealing or overstaying visa is crime everywhere. why surprised about arrest? other countries ignore this? from japan.

Far too many HN “Japan understanders” receive all their opinions about Japan from US activists who get paid to write hate pieces about Japanese culture.

Just look at this thread. Yakuza? Taking umbrellas = go to jail? These people are morons. Worse, they think they are informed.

Maybe the BoJ didn’t burn enough money on US bonds this week or something. I can never understand the timing of these things or who is funding them.

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