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Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

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Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#781

I live in Poland. This headline is misleading. Poland didn't build a top-20 economy. Western Europe and the US built their economy in Poland, because the labor is educated and cheap. There are almost no globally competitive Polish companies. The "growth" is branch offices of German and American corporations taking advantage of engineers who'll work for 40% of Berlin rates. Remove the foreign-owned sector and you're l…

You gotta have "A" to do "B".

This is one way of having "A" that isn't "massive internal natural resources" like USA, China, Russia, Colonialism, or Oil States (I'm sure I missed other kickstarters here).

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#782

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No capitalists just provide money, something other entities can as well. Often better too. Capitalists are completely useless when they have no workers, so I don't understand your points outside of "wow capitalists require a lot of workers to exist." Hence the rush towards LLM systems, the dream of perpetual labor machine is too enticing. There is also no risks for capitalists, do we live on the same planet where the…

> There is also no risks for capitalists So you argue no capitalists ever lost money? It happens all the time, the risk is real.

The risk is absolutely real, and varies immensely, as does its significance.

Consider the risks of VC backed initiatives, which far more often than not, return less than market salary to entrepreneurs, and less than the S&P 500 to capitalists.

For a shot at the jackpot, entrepreneurs are risking substandard salaries, and capitalists substandard returns.

You could argue that the capitalist’s risk is more significant than the entrepreneur’s. Even in failure, a VC initiative can afford the entrepreneur greater networking and professional experience than other roles, which increases their future earning potential and offsets their risk of substandard salary.

Hard to say the same for the capitalist, who is also, of course, risking a far greater amount of currency than anyone else.

But a risk’s significance is not determined by the amount wagered; it is determined by the consequences of losing the wager. As well as the consequences of participation, or lack thereof.

Median American lifetime earnings are somewhere between one and two million dollars; let’s say an entire life costs two million. A capitalist capable of investing a billion dollars could risk an entire lifetime’s money on a venture every other month, for eighty years, cradle to grave, and if they suffered complete losses every time, they’d still die with enough money for 1600 years of life in a wealthy nation.

The sum risked is immense. But the consequences of losing it are null.

It is, of course, more nuanced than that. Many businesses are funded by people with far less than a billion dollars, and many of them fail. There's also 3,000 billionaires, and an overwhelming majority of human lives that cost far less than American's.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#783
post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Polish economy grows despite EU membership, not because of it. LOL. Seriously, LOL. You think GDP growth would be HIGHER if not for the access to the common market? What the hell are you talking about? As a Pole, I see such statements as absolutely ridiculous, brain-dead.

Common market is overrated, and the negative impact of EU-imposed taxes and stupid regulations is real. As I said: Polish GDP grew faster before joining EU. I would be first to vote "leave" if it ever comes to it.

> and the negative impact of EU-imposed taxes and stupid regulations is real

WHAT TAXES? WHAT TAXES? And the impact of actual import taxes imposed by EU on Polish manufacturers would be what, imaginary?

> As I said: Polish GDP grew faster before joining EU.

It came from a much lower point that any other economy in the region. You'd better compare against Czech or Hungarian economies first, which started off much richer post 1990. So, how the fuck do you know it would continue to grow like it did had it not join the EU? Have you heard of logical fallacies?

What an absolutely horrible take. Zero facts, just speculations and "trust me bro" hot-takes. Seriously, are you a bot? Because that's the kind of made up shit bots make nowadays to sway people towards right-wing libertarian parties.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#784

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Romania?

Romania is still occupied by Russia. Unlike with Germany, where the East and West reunited, Romania failed to reunite with Eastern Moldova (Western Moldova is in Romania) because of Russian interference in the 1990s. The Russians invaded Transnistria (which was never Romanian) and expanded a bit west. So the Russians still occupy part of the land that is by right Romanian and still have political influence in R. Mold…

> Romania is still occupied by Russia? I'm a Romanian and never heard such nonsense. We have nothing to do with what's going on in Eastern Moldova nor with people from that region. We do not consider them Romanians at all. While a lot of them come here and integrate well, as a general feeling in these areas, they are more russians than romanians and I assure you, should it be to a vote, we wouldn't join.

And btw, Romania is not occupied by Russia stop spreading such nonsense.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#785

The story is longer: Poland was the first country to make a remarkable peaceful transition from a bankrupt, failed Soviet satellite state. The shock therapy, plus NATO and EU aspirations, paved the way. It is a story of a country that made a lot of the right decisions along the way. Managed to keep consistent high growth, not a pony trick or boom/bust mode. Poland should be a role model for many other countries. Reco…

>> Poland was the first country to make a remarkable peaceful transition from a bankrupt, failed Soviet satellite state. In what sense? Czechia is richer per capita. Almost all of the former Soviet satellite states in eastern Europe have had largely peaceful (since 1991) sustained economic growth. The exceptions are exactly those countries which continue to have Russian troops occupying portions, namely Belarus, Ukra…

>Czechia is richer per capita

This is a very bad measure of anything, especially wealth.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#786

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious what this means in real terms from the perspective of a Pole. GDP/capita is often a relatively useless metric in modern times. For instance Ireland has one of the highest GDP/capitas in the world -- around 50% higher than the US. But that's because of economic games with their working as a tax haven to enable corporations to avoid paying taxes to their home countries. It doesn't translate to anything for…

As a Polish millenial the perspective is a rollercoaster. In one way the transformation of absolutely everything over and over and over is mind blowing in a positive way. OTOH we're also all paranoid running on what feels like a never ending hamster wheel of inflation, raises and mortgages. And then Gen-Z's feel straight get up locked out of everything. We visit western European countries and it's like WTF it's cheap…

Vibecession at country scale. Seems like growth feels like instability for many citizens.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#787

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends what you’re using the data for. If you’re comparing across countries, or looking at a developing country over time, it’s a relatively small factor. The ratio between the average and the median isn’t that big even in the U.S. (about 1.3). Meanwhile, Poland’s GDP per capita has tripled since 2005: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?location... .

> The ratio between the average and the median isn’t that big even in the U.S. (about 1.3) Being off by 30% might not matter for some usages, but it is not a small amount. It seems the median is more accurate to report and we agree.

For purposes of comparing countries to each other and the same country over time, it’s not 30% off. The average skews higher than the median everywhere, so it’ll be 1.3/1.x.

If you have reported median incomes that are calculated the same way across countries and over time, that would be better. But many countries don’t reliably track that data, and the ones that do calculate it in completely different ways.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#788

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dziękuję bardzo! Ale oni i tak nic nie przeczytają :(

Två kan spela samma spel, frågan är vem det nu är som läser eller lyssnar och vem inte gör det. Det hjälper inte heller att kalla allt som inte passar åsiktskorridoren som 'extremhöger' eller amerikanska versionen av samma konceptet, inte heller att peka fingret mot påstådda 'fienden' och kalla honom för ryssvänlig. Also, let's speak English here so everyone understands what we're talking about. Ja nje omje moviez po…

>Två kan spela samma spel, frågan är vem det nu är som läser eller lyssnar och vem inte gör det. Det hjälper inte heller att kalla allt som inte passar åsiktskorridoren som 'extremhöger' eller amerikanska versionen av samma konceptet, inte heller att peka fingret mot påstådda 'fienden' och kalla honom för ryssvänlig.

>Also, let's speak English here so everyone understands what we're talking about. Ja nje omje moviez po Polsku (I probably butchered the spelling but you get my drift). Ja nje gawarje pa roesskie either but English I can do pretty well.

The funny thing here is that if one skips the non-English part of your comment, they don't miss anything of substance that applies to this discussion.

I'm not "playing games", and I've stated the facts in my longer comment. Please respond there if you have opinions, and please quote the parts you're not agreeing with, because here you seem to be arguing with points nobody in this conversation made.

In any case, I'm happy for you in Sweden (I presume), where, unlike the people you're attempting to correct, you are not directly affected by either MAGA in the US or the Polish equivalent.

I'm guessing that nobody ever called you a kurwa when they heard you speak, or threatened to beat you up in public for looking too queer, so you can still have enlightened opinions about American and Polish "conservatives" without ever having to interact with them.

I'm sorry you were triggered by seeing the word "MAGA" to the extent that you felt the need to tell me to stop talking. Sadly, in a discussion about Poland and the anti-EU sentiment there, MAGA is very much relevant.

I accept your non-apology in all the languages you don't speak, and I'm glad that you have a sufficient command of the English language to participate in this discussion.

Nice Swedish too though. Have you been studying it for a while?

Since we are discussing Poland, knowing a bit of Polish to understand the context would have been useful. Unfortunately, the Swedish language plays very little role in the geopolitical situation we're discussing, and won't help you understand either MAGA or PiS supporters.

Speaking of understanding, I'm curious about your basis for understanding American, Polish, and Russian politics, given that you don't appear to have any lived experience, direct exposure, or command of the languages (aside from English, presumably). I surely hope your knowledge of the US politics is sourced from more than Hacker News and media personalities like John Oliver.

In any case, thank you again for trying to say something that another person might find valuable, and I wish you luck in your next attempt.

Skol.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#789

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Western Europe and the US built their economy in Poland, because the labor is educated and cheap. > There are almost no globally competitive Polish companies. Same issue in all southern and eastern European countries.

Grossly incorrect and unfounded. There are no Googles there, but there are plenty of mid tier companies delivering quality products. For a blatant example see e.g. Shelly in Bulgaria. Or depending on how you count South, e.g. Vinci or Eni or car producers in Italy. And not everyone needs to succeed in industrial household names, that e.g. much of southern European economies come from tourism is not a bad thing.

Shelly is anything but quality and also a niche product, when juxtaposed with car manufacturers you mention.

Re: Poland is now among the 20 largest economies

#790
post #659
post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What kind of dev salaries are you seeing in Poland? I have family in Poland, they are from smaller villages and they ALWAYS complain about EU and the economy. I wonder if things are similar in large cities.

Typical salary for a senior dev is around 20-30k PLN per month, which translates to $65k-$100k per year (gross). Also, a lot of devs do a little bit of tax avoidance that is currently not persecuted, which allows them to pay total taxes below 20% on that amount. So, your take-home pay is $50k-$80k.

These were typical salaries 2+ years ago. Things changes substantially since. New hires earn less across the board, irrespective of experience.
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