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Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

theguardian.com

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Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#531

Post by echoangle »

xdennis wrote: post #518
joefourier wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boys and girls being different does not mean one sex deserves corporal punishment and one does not. Girls are equally capable of cyberbullying (which is covered by this law), why should they only get detention while a 9 year old boy has to suffer physical violence? What does this teach girls - that they can get away with more? That they're more fragile than even a prepubescent boy? If the law punishes one demographic…

> Boys and girls being different does not mean one sex deserves corporal punishment and one does not. Girls are equally capable of cyberbullying (which is covered by this law), why should they only get detention while a 9 year old boy has to suffer physical violence? In many systems of law, the punishment should mirror the crime. You gouge out an eye -> the government gouges out one of your eyes. In every country, me…

> In many systems of law, the punishment should mirror the crime. You gouge out an eye -> the government gouges out one of your eyes.

Which systems aside form sharia law would that be?

And also the claim was that this law also applies to cyberbullying. So why should boys that cyberbully someone be caned and girls not?

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#532

Post by something765478 »

blks wrote: post #296
mantas wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may want to do some research on this thing called „hormones“ and how they differ in both genders.

Hormones don’t raise kids in particular gender norms, don’t carve them a place in society, don’t feed them gender-based culture 24/7. They do have a physical impact, impact on sexual development, their sex, reproductive function, temperament, but gender is a human invention.

Our "gender based culture" wasn't imposed on us by space aliens; it's something we humans came up with ourselves. And given that basically every culture divides people by gender (as opposed to by height, hair color, or fingernail shape), it very much indicates that there is a biological component to gender.

> but gender is a human invention.

So you don't believe a person can be transgender, right?

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#533

Post by JCTheDenthog »

nephihaha wrote: post #431
threethirtytwo wrote: post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No this is not true. Expulsion works in many cases. The idea of getting expelled prevents a lot of problems. A lot of people avoid doing things that will get them expelled but this of course doesn't apply to everyone including the person in your example. It's similar to how prison is a deterrent to crime. But it doesn't change the fact that there are people who still do crimes and get into prison.

Many unruly pupils have trouble at home, impoverished backgrounds, dyslexia, autism, social anxiety and a host of other things. Expelling them solves none of these things. They may be bullies themselves because of an ongoing toxic culture in the school. That can include the teachers in some cases, who are some of the worst bullies in there. I had one who persecuted me for a speech impediment and humiliated me in fron…

[dead]

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#534

Post by gambiting »

chr1 wrote: post #521
gambiting wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>I mean the money that government wastes keeping them in school while they are 15 and don't want to learn, can be given to them later when/if they decide to learn. So you want to financially incentivize kids to drop out of school? "Drop out now, we'll give you a bunch of money later". >> these are rather misguided attempts by politicians to look good, and are harmful to the society. Saying that keeping 15 year olds…

> Drop out now, we'll give you a bunch of money later Later they only get ability to sit at the same classes at the same public school, so there is no financial incentive. 15 year olds forced to sit in classes they don't want are way more miserable than those allowed to work and feel like adults. In any case people should be allowed to make choices by themselves not be forced by the government. > the school I went to…

>>Later they only get ability to sit at the same classes at the same public schoo

I have to ask, what public school would accept adults taking classes along the rest of 15 year olds?

>> In any case people should be allowed to make choices by themselves not be forced by the government.

I'm sorry, but kids/teenagers are generally not allowed to make these choices, for good reasons. If you're an adult, then sure, do whatever. But kids should be in school, whether they like it or not - it's really not their choice to make. We can argue that maybe 15-16 year olds are at the cusp of being able to do this - but I'd say the cut off should stay at 18. You're under 18, you go to school. There's no other option. The question is how does the state manage this.

>>The problem is that most schools are simply opposed to the idea of splitting students based on their ability and willingness to study.

And I agree that it's an awful thing(that the schools are unwilling to do this)

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#535

Post by gambiting »

dotancohen wrote: post #519
gambiting wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>My son was hammering nails into wood and drilling into masonry at 8 And was he doing that 8 hours a day, 5 days a week? Like you know...he would do at work? Or was it just a nice thing he did with his parents helping out with some construction projects you had going on? >>12 year olds are not babies. Of course not, but then again I have to ask the same question once more - if you were in charge of national policy,…

> And was he doing that 8 hours a day, 5 days a week? Like you know...he would do at work? No, he was doing it for maybe a few hours at a time, no more. He demonstrated capability. > if you were in charge of national policy, what kind of work program would you establish for 12 year olds that misbehave at school? I would not establish a work program for 12 year olds that misbehave at school. I would however ensure tha…

Ok, so answer the question then - what work program would there be for those 12 year olds that cannot function in the company of polite society. Like what kind of work would you have them do and how would you ensure compliance.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#536

Post by aldrich »

madaxe_again wrote: post #488
andsoitis wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Stereotyping all Afrikaners with that brush is despicable.

I’m sorry, calling Dutch colonists colonisers is despicable? Well, I suppose not just Dutch colonists, they did have their population bolstered by a lot of Austrians and Germans escaping war crime prosecution in the 40’s. Anyway. In the early 90’s, in the U.K.? They were coming over for one reason only. The Afrikaner masters were always racist, always fans of collective punishment and bizarre corporal punishments.

I'm sure that person must've been a pretty bad one. But to tie Dutch colonialism, apartheid and WW2 war criminals (centuries later by the way) together this way to excuse these discriminatory remarks is pretty daft. Needless to say, not everyone was/is like that.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#537

Post by Barrin92 »

coldtea wrote: post #194
throwawayk7h wrote: post #188

I've never understood the illiberal desire to treat boys and girls so differently. I'm glad I live in a country where sexism is illegal at a fundamental level -- this kind of law would be quickly struck down.

Maybe it's based on millions of years of biological differences in their capacities and functions (starting from body strength and role in reproduction), plus differences in social roles, of which some of the latter might be arbitrary, but some are necessary adjustments every historical society understood.

It's not even remotely clear to me what this has to do with the topic at hand because insofar as gender plays into bullying girls tend to be more impacted than boys, and secondly corporal punishment and 'disciplining' women by men was historically normalized.

The Singaporean habit of caning is a very modern practice of industrial and military society that has no biological analog, an offshoot of mass discipline society of the 20th century and gender roles of Victorian Britain where groups of men needed to be 'whipped into shape' and women were feminine and pure, but it sure is convenient to randomly invoke biology when one runs out of arguments

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#538

Post by joefourier »

xdennis wrote: post #518
joefourier wrote: post #469

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Boys and girls being different does not mean one sex deserves corporal punishment and one does not. Girls are equally capable of cyberbullying (which is covered by this law), why should they only get detention while a 9 year old boy has to suffer physical violence? What does this teach girls - that they can get away with more? That they're more fragile than even a prepubescent boy? If the law punishes one demographic…

> Boys and girls being different does not mean one sex deserves corporal punishment and one does not. Girls are equally capable of cyberbullying (which is covered by this law), why should they only get detention while a 9 year old boy has to suffer physical violence? In many systems of law, the punishment should mirror the crime. You gouge out an eye -> the government gouges out one of your eyes. In every country, me…

> In every country, men commit almost all violent crimes. In school, boys physically bully other boys. Hence the physical punishment for them.

As I've said, and @echoangle repeated, caning is used for cyberbullying, which girls do too (at a rate relatively close to boys actually). If the law was caning in response to physical bullying, and it just so happened that the vast majority of offenders were boys, I would not object on the basic of sexism (I still would not approve of schools being allowed to physically punish students).

> Yes, for homo sapiens, the female is more fragile than the male. This is basic biology. I'm sure that in praying mantis society, females get harsher punishments.

There's no way the typical 16 year old girl is more fragile than the typical 9 year old boy, yet only the latter is subject to this punishment. Until children reach the age of 12 or so the strength difference is quite minor (and there's even a brief period where girls are taller and heavier).

Also it's absurd to punish demographics differently based on their statistical averages. Redheads are less sensitive to pain, should your hair colour determine how many strokes of the cane you get?

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#539

Post by tzs »

coldtea wrote: post #194
throwawayk7h wrote: post #188

I've never understood the illiberal desire to treat boys and girls so differently. I'm glad I live in a country where sexism is illegal at a fundamental level -- this kind of law would be quickly struck down.

Maybe it's based on millions of years of biological differences in their capacities and functions (starting from body strength and role in reproduction), plus differences in social roles, of which some of the latter might be arbitrary, but some are necessary adjustments every historical society understood.

Which of these biological differences in capacities and functions make it so that girls should not be punished by physical pain but it is OK to punish boys with a physical pain using a method that often leaves permanent scars and lasting psychological damage?

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#540

Post by Saline9515 »

hkpack wrote: post #96
rvnx wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Works really well, and doing nothing is exactly why western societies are fucked up. New generations do whatever they want and do not face any consequences. Have you seen how much of a shithole France became due to street criminality and teenagers attacking people ?

> Have you seen how much of a shithole France became No, how far away should I be to see that?

Paris, rue Poulet is a good intro, but the rabbit hole goes deep if you choose to go to the North of the capital.
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