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Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

theguardian.com

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Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#431

Post by nephihaha »

threethirtytwo wrote: post #429
nephihaha wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You expel them and they become another person's problem. I heard recently of a local problem child aged seven. He's already been expelled from a private school but has entered a state school where he seriously injured another pupil and attempted to strangle one of the teachers. Expulsion isn't going to reform them, it will just move it on elsewhere.

No this is not true. Expulsion works in many cases. The idea of getting expelled prevents a lot of problems. A lot of people avoid doing things that will get them expelled but this of course doesn't apply to everyone including the person in your example. It's similar to how prison is a deterrent to crime. But it doesn't change the fact that there are people who still do crimes and get into prison.

Many unruly pupils have trouble at home, impoverished backgrounds, dyslexia, autism, social anxiety and a host of other things. Expelling them solves none of these things.

They may be bullies themselves because of an ongoing toxic culture in the school. That can include the teachers in some cases, who are some of the worst bullies in there. I had one who persecuted me for a speech impediment and humiliated me in front of an entire class of children by making me say tongue twisters.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#432

Post by buran77 »

armchairhacker wrote: post #237
gambiting wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Two problems: 1) school education is mandatory until 16-18 in most countries, so what do you do with them once they get expelled. They have to be in education somewhere - so do you just put them in one school for all the expelled students, which is just constantly on fire? You made the problem much worse for yourself(as in - the state). 2) " there’s no benefit to keeping them in school and massive consequences for th…

Put them in work programs. If they can’t be productive, put them in mental institutions. To be clear, abuse in these programs should be prevented as much as feasible, and there should be an opportunity for any kid who demonstrates redemption to get back in school. It’s a bad solution, but I don’t know any which is better. Keeping them in society is worse for innocent people (and doesn’t seem to usually benefit them e…

> Put them in work programs. If they can’t be productive, put them in mental institutions.

People with this mentality should never, ever be given any semblance of power. In almost every one of your comments you went to the extreme but "forced labor" and "committed to mental asylum" really take the cake.

> but I don’t know any which is better.

Are you genuinely wondering what's better, investing in prisons or in education? As far as I can tell your solutions involve making the problem worse by cutting the access to the only thing that could fix it (education), then building forced work camps and asylums to contain the now exploding problem.

The US stands proof that building more prisons doesn't lead to having fewer criminals. Education does. The first thing you thought of axing.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#433

Post by ecshafer »

yowo wrote: post #192

I was hit with wooden 100cm ruler in middle school multiple times, it is painful for an hour or so but not emotionally damaging or anything, I'd be happy to meet that teacher today, I dropped out from high school eventually after I've been reducled and mocked at by a principal repeatedly as I didn't like to shave my facial hair, which I assume happen all the time and isn't as controversial. I kept dreaming of vandali…

This matches with my experience. Men really don't hold grudges against authority that give them stern, but fair punishments. Think of any sports coaches that make their athletes do extra running or push ups or whatever for punishment. They garner respect from their players, and there isn't real negativity towards them. Its cruel, arbitrary punishments, or mocking that causes resentment. If you take a test and get a 70 but its a fair grade, thats how it goes. If you deserved a 95 though, or the professor calls you an idiot, that is the antagonism generating event.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#434

Post by threethirtytwo »

bsenftner wrote: post #311
danpalmer wrote: post #129

The only effective punishment/threat that I saw work on my bullies at school was the threat to remove one of them from the football team and prevent him from playing for the school. He turned it around and was ok after that. It was highly effective because it was a bigger punishment than those used for not doing your homework, and because it was highly relevant to him specifically. It worked because we had 16 student…

Bullies need to be identified as simply immature, treated as children that have not graduated to their age. That really impacts the individual. Make them wear identifying clothing as a "special case" and they will mature very fast.

It's not always straight up immaturity. A lot of it could be other issues related to the bullies environment/household or many other issues.

Classical stereotypical case is that the bully himself has an abusive/alcoholic father. There's a lot of complexity in what's involved here, but society is only equipped to deal with the "immaturity" case which is real but not the only story.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#435

Post by joenot443 »

georgeburdell wrote: post #424
triceratops wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American colleges I can understand. But other than bragging rights, why should a high school give enough of a shit about championships to look the other way on bullying?

Middle America peaks in High School. Local games are televised and commentated even during the regular season. The TV series Friday Night Lights is a reasonable reference as an outsider

Can any Americans confirm this?

Were your high school sports games televised and commentated?

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#436

Post by eviks »

danpalmer wrote: post #129

The only effective punishment/threat that I saw work on my bullies at school was the threat to remove one of them from the football team and prevent him from playing for the school. He turned it around and was ok after that. It was highly effective because it was a bigger punishment than those used for not doing your homework, and because it was highly relevant to him specifically. It worked because we had 16 student…

> teachers who gave a crap and put the time in to understand the problem and think of potential solutions, rather than just apply generic policy.

Oh common, threatening to take something a kid loves away is the most bland/generic policy there is, there is exactly zero "understanding" required, though some care would be required to actually trying to do anything

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#437

Post by everforward »

gottorf wrote: post #144
everforward wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got a link to a study or meta-study? I tried searching, but the results I can find from Singapore match Western research. A notable divergence here is that Singapore leverages the death penalty _much, much_ more heavily than even the US does. Per capita death penalties were 20.3x higher in Singapore than the US. Deterrence means a lot less when you don't have to worry about recidivism because the person is dead. That…

Putting your different points together: > piles of research showing that severity of punishment is not an effective deterrent > not think of consequences > Deterrence means a lot less when you don't have to worry about recidivism because the person is dead Sounds like (in general, not talking about minors) when you execute the people who for whatever reason cannot think far enough ahead for punishment to be an effect…

Sure, but that’s not deterrence anymore. The question there is less “will it work” and more “is this morally justifiable?” especially given the concerning proximity to eugenics (which started off as eliminating crime by eliminating people with “crime genes”).

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#438

Post by triceratops »

georgeburdell wrote: post #424
triceratops wrote: post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American colleges I can understand. But other than bragging rights, why should a high school give enough of a shit about championships to look the other way on bullying?

Middle America peaks in High School. Local games are televised and commentated even during the regular season. The TV series Friday Night Lights is a reasonable reference as an outsider

My school wasn't like that. I assumed Varsity Blues was fiction. Or at least, kind of outdated.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#439

Post by threethirtytwo »

clort wrote: post #177
reenorap wrote: post #163

The best way to handle a bully is to fight them tooth and nail even if you're going to get beaten up or you get suspended from school. If you keep fighting them the bullying will stop, and you will also gain some self-esteem.

This is only half-true. Normally, the bully can escalate further than you are capable of, since they are experienced at it. Sometimes they can even get their henchmen to hold you at a distance so your resistance has no effect. It worked for me once. I think, bullying the loser was kind of cool in front of his gang, but rolling around on the floor wrestling with a loser in front of them was not so cool. Sure, I got pu…

No getting stabbed is rare. You made the right move and you learned to stand up for yourself. The bully learned not to fuck with you.

If you told authorities and they coddled you that experience might get imprinted on your personality.

Re: Singapore introduces caning for boys who bully others at school

#440

Post by georgeburdell »

joenot443 wrote: post #435
georgeburdell wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Middle America peaks in High School. Local games are televised and commentated even during the regular season. The TV series Friday Night Lights is a reasonable reference as an outsider

Can any Americans confirm this? Were your high school sports games televised and commentated?

That's my personal experience growing up in a suburban area in the South (edit: in the 90s)
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