Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Mumbai girl arrested for Facebook post

mumbaimirror.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 126 posts

Re: Mumbai girl arrested for Facebook post

#81

Post by fingerprinter »

Volpe wrote: post #72
mseebach2 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a meaningless question. How would a world without religion come about? By flipping a switch, and everybody becomes well educated, peace loving, hyper-rational atheists? In that case, probably yeah, it'd be better. On the other hand, if you start lopping the heads of anyone found to be taking guidance from any teaching that isn't solidly grounded in hard science, then, no, it certainly won't be better.

That's right because all religious people are poorly educated war loving and irrational. Seriously... Do you forget what was responsible for spreading education so rapidly around the world (give you a hint, it wasn't atheists). There are a number of religions that are founded in rationality, and large components of others that are pure rationality. Just because you don't believe in (a) G/god doesn't mean you aren't r…

Irrational for sure. Everyone's an athiest when they're born. The natural position is non-belief. Religion is a faith based belief system for something that cannot be proven. Hence, belief in religion is by definition irrational.

Now, if you are saying 'religion' to mean 'societal construct' or something like that, well, that is a different ballgame. Though I don't think you mean that, so the above applies.

Bottom line, the major religions of the world demand someone to suspend rationality to believe. Otherwise the followers would not be followers.

And as for educated. Perhaps there isn't a conclusive study on the subject, but it is safe to say that the more educated you are, the less likely you are to be religious, particularly fundamental. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence

Re: Mumbai girl arrested for Facebook post

#82

Post by mseebach2 »

Volpe wrote: post #72
mseebach2 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a meaningless question. How would a world without religion come about? By flipping a switch, and everybody becomes well educated, peace loving, hyper-rational atheists? In that case, probably yeah, it'd be better. On the other hand, if you start lopping the heads of anyone found to be taking guidance from any teaching that isn't solidly grounded in hard science, then, no, it certainly won't be better.

That's right because all religious people are poorly educated war loving and irrational. Seriously... Do you forget what was responsible for spreading education so rapidly around the world (give you a hint, it wasn't atheists). There are a number of religions that are founded in rationality, and large components of others that are pure rationality. Just because you don't believe in (a) G/god doesn't mean you aren't r…

I meant that sentence to make good atheists distinct from bad ones (such as various brands of communists). In general, I agree with you. It's incredibly hard to separate out religion from history - almost everything that happened in the world up until about 100 years ago was driven by religious people, and that's the core of my objection that it's a meaningless question. If there never was any religion, you'd have to rewrite literally the entire history of the world and you can't flippantly claim that the outcome would be overall better.

Re: Mumbai girl arrested for Facebook post

#84

Post by mseebach2 »

fingerprinter wrote: post #81
Volpe wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's right because all religious people are poorly educated war loving and irrational. Seriously... Do you forget what was responsible for spreading education so rapidly around the world (give you a hint, it wasn't atheists). There are a number of religions that are founded in rationality, and large components of others that are pure rationality. Just because you don't believe in (a) G/god doesn't mean you aren't r…

Irrational for sure. Everyone's an athiest when they're born. The natural position is non-belief. Religion is a faith based belief system for something that cannot be proven. Hence, belief in religion is by definition irrational. Now, if you are saying 'religion' to mean 'societal construct' or something like that, well, that is a different ballgame. Though I don't think you mean that, so the above applies. Bottom li…

No, nobody is an atheist when they're born. Atheism is the conscious rejection of the existence of god. Agnostic, more likely.

Yes, religion is by definition irrational. Humans generally aren't very rational beings. Love is irrational, it makes us do irrational things, but I'm sure we can agree, on the balance, love is a good thing. Thus dismissing religion on irrationality grounds is not very meaningful.

Re: Mumbai girl arrested for Facebook post

#85

Post by fingerprinter »

mseebach2 wrote: post #84
fingerprinter wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Irrational for sure. Everyone's an athiest when they're born. The natural position is non-belief. Religion is a faith based belief system for something that cannot be proven. Hence, belief in religion is by definition irrational. Now, if you are saying 'religion' to mean 'societal construct' or something like that, well, that is a different ballgame. Though I don't think you mean that, so the above applies. Bottom li…

No, nobody is an atheist when they're born. Atheism is the conscious rejection of the existence of god. Agnostic, more likely. Yes, religion is by definition irrational. Humans generally aren't very rational beings. Love is irrational, it makes us do irrational things, but I'm sure we can agree, on the balance, love is a good thing. Thus dismissing religion on irrationality grounds is not very meaningful.

There is confusion over what atheism actually is. Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#Implicit_vs._explicit We are born (implicit) atheists.

I also didn't say we should dismiss religion because it is irrational, I said people who were religious were irrational. I believe that still stands.

If anyone asked, I would say we should dismiss religion because it is harmful. Harmful to our stability, harmful to our advancement, harmful to the people that follow it and harmful to the people stuck in it against their will (either country, family or society). Today the negatives of religion far outweigh any good it can do. There was a time and place for religion, but we have outgrown it.

Re: Mumbai girl arrested for Facebook post

#86

Post by kamaal »

bhntr3 wrote: post #76
Volpe wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As fun as it is to think everyone thinks like americans... Does India have and promote the ideal of "Freedom of Expression"? Or is this just the US peanut gallery giving their 2 cents on other peoples' culture?

When I was in India, I found it interesting that the Indian concept of Freedom of Religion (which they've had off and on for much much longer than the US) is actually equality of religion in the eyes of the state rather than separation of church and state. So, different religions have different laws that apply to them. That's a very alien concept to Americans. Even Britain doesn't have a guarantee of freedom of speec…

Indian concept of religion is so much different than the west that it may come shock to you. And it doesn't stop at religion, culture has a very big part to play at it.

Coming to law, Religion plays a role in the law too! Because its the cheapest and fastest way to get justice compared to the traditional courts, where it may take years and your whole savings will be wiped out before you get a judgement. For example Muslims have some thing called as Personal Law: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_India_Muslim_Personal_Law_B... , Which applies to many things like marriage and especially law dealing with personal issues.

In the state of Haryana there are Khap panchayats(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khap)

With such a large country. And thousands of languages, cultures etc. Such diversity in nearly every walk of life be it clothing, food, festivals etc. You can never say/do anything signification without disappointing few people.

Re: Mumbai girl arrested for Facebook post

#87

Post by denzil_correa »

The chairman of Press Council of India and has written to the Chief Minister of the state of Mumbai (Maharashtra) to intervene and sort out this issue citing "freedom of speech" Article 19 (1)(a) of the Indian constitution [0].

[0] http://ibnlive.in.com/news/katju-writes-to-maha-cm-on-arrest...

Re: Mumbai girl arrested for Facebook post

#88

Post by mylittlepony »

mseebach2 wrote: post #84
fingerprinter wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Irrational for sure. Everyone's an athiest when they're born. The natural position is non-belief. Religion is a faith based belief system for something that cannot be proven. Hence, belief in religion is by definition irrational. Now, if you are saying 'religion' to mean 'societal construct' or something like that, well, that is a different ballgame. Though I don't think you mean that, so the above applies. Bottom li…

No, nobody is an atheist when they're born. Atheism is the conscious rejection of the existence of god. Agnostic, more likely. Yes, religion is by definition irrational. Humans generally aren't very rational beings. Love is irrational, it makes us do irrational things, but I'm sure we can agree, on the balance, love is a good thing. Thus dismissing religion on irrationality grounds is not very meaningful.

I disagree with both. We are born atheists, but we can create our own god(s) even without the influence of others. How else would religions come to existence? It might even be an evolutionary trait or something. Having bigger brains, larger set of emotions etc, we needed something to protect us from the sensation of a meaningless life, injustice, the concept of death, the ending of our consciousness, etc.

Re: Mumbai girl arrested for Facebook post

#89

Post by mseebach2 »

fingerprinter wrote: post #85
mseebach2 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, nobody is an atheist when they're born. Atheism is the conscious rejection of the existence of god. Agnostic, more likely. Yes, religion is by definition irrational. Humans generally aren't very rational beings. Love is irrational, it makes us do irrational things, but I'm sure we can agree, on the balance, love is a good thing. Thus dismissing religion on irrationality grounds is not very meaningful.

There is confusion over what atheism actually is. Look here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism#Implicit_vs._explicit We are born (implicit) atheists. I also didn't say we should dismiss religion because it is irrational, I said people who were religious were irrational. I believe that still stands. If anyone asked, I would say we should dismiss religion because it is harmful. Harmful to our stability, harmful to o…

Most of the negatives you mention are perhaps styled in the language of religion, but they're underpinned by deeper causes.

The Middle East isn't solely a religious conflict, it's very much an ethnic one as well. Oppressive countries are oppressive, they're not liberal countries that just happened to read in a book that they should kill and maim those that worship in the wrong way. Closely knit groups (families, societies) are going to sanction deviators regardless of religion.

Re: Mumbai girl arrested for Facebook post

#90

Post by lazyfunctor »

jasim wrote: post #51

Bal Thackeray or communal politics is not the issue here. It is the freedom of expression of individuals. The Chairman of Press Club of India had an article on The Hindu (a national daily) which painted Thackeray in a bad light ( http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/why-i-cant-pay-tribute... ) - but the state won't act as recklessly against him as they have against these two. Recent events in the country that sets t…

Another event that sets off alarm bell was sedition charge (one of the most abused laws) against cartoonist Aseem Trivedi. Thankfully you can still have some faith in Indian judicial system. Full story here: http://goo.gl/evx4J
Post reply on HN