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I'm scared about biological computing

kuber.studio

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Re: I'm scared about biological computing

#121

Post by rcxdude »

the_af wrote: post #95
JK-Swizzle wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe you are missing the forest for the trees. It is bringing up the question of what defines self will. It is unrelated to veganism in all but text. An easy example is dogs. We have bred dogs for centuries to love doing work for us. If they hated doing the work, it would be easy to call it cruel. If they loved it by nature, it would be easy to call it kind. But since we created them into a thing that loves the…

> Dogs we changed by accident (I know your point wasn't about dogs either, it just reminded me of something). I love Neil de Grasse Tyson's line in Cosmos: A Spacetime Odyssey : "This wolf has discovered what a branch of its ancestors figured out some 15.000 years ago... an excellent survival strategy: the domestication of humans."

It's much like how many plants have accidentally found that a great means of propagation is to produce a compound that is both a great chemical warfare agent against other plants and microbes and also tastes interesting to humans or makes them feel funny.

Re: I'm scared about biological computing

#122

Post by kjkjadksj »

philips wrote: post #2

I think this is the same ethical questions of veganism and our use/abuse of biological systems. This is an excerpt from "The Pig that Wants to be Eaten" by Julian Baggini > After forty years of vegetarianism, Max Berger was about to sit down to a feast of pork sausages, crispy bacon and pan-fried chicken breast. Max had always missed the taste of meat, but his principles were stronger than his culinary cravings. But…

At the end of the day vegans play the same game as meat eaters where some line is drawn. For meat eaters it is with livestock meats and for pescatarians that is no go, but fish are alright. And for vegans that is all off limits. Except of course the life we deem base enough to not care it is being eaten alive. Slaughter all the lettuce you want. There are no lettuce advocates.

All this to say the moral arguments are sort of silly and illogical. Unfortunately for us all, we exist where we do in the food chain, having to consume life to live, unable to secure our resources from the sun and inorganic resources which would be more morally righteous by all measures. Things could be better but they also could be worse. At least much of our prey receives veterinary care and is killed via airgun vs having to rough it and be eaten alive.

Re: I'm scared about biological computing

#123

Post by cassianoleal »

boogieknite wrote: post #93
cassianoleal wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you only eat living things?

only eat live pikmin

How do feel about the live pikmin dying as it reaches your stomach? I'm assuming you swallow them whole rather than killing them with your teeth.

Re: I'm scared about biological computing

#124

Post by 0dayz »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #122
philips wrote: post #2

I think this is the same ethical questions of veganism and our use/abuse of biological systems. This is an excerpt from "The Pig that Wants to be Eaten" by Julian Baggini > After forty years of vegetarianism, Max Berger was about to sit down to a feast of pork sausages, crispy bacon and pan-fried chicken breast. Max had always missed the taste of meat, but his principles were stronger than his culinary cravings. But…

At the end of the day vegans play the same game as meat eaters where some line is drawn. For meat eaters it is with livestock meats and for pescatarians that is no go, but fish are alright. And for vegans that is all off limits. Except of course the life we deem base enough to not care it is being eaten alive. Slaughter all the lettuce you want. There are no lettuce advocates. All this to say the moral arguments are…

AFAIK vegans base their argument on the degree of consciousness a living being had and compromise on the least evil.

Most meat eaters base it on closeness to said living thing.

It'll be interesting to see if the veganism movement survives lab grown meat that is ethically produced.

Re: I'm scared about biological computing

#126

Post by slibhb »

maybewhenthesun wrote: post #71
slibhb wrote: post #60

I read an interesting book about consciousness recently: The Hidden Spring by Mark Solms. Solms argues, I think convincingly, that consciousness fundamentally has to do with emotions and not cognition. Consciousness is not produced by the cortex but rather by the brainstem, where signals from all over the body converge (e.g. pain, hunger, itchiness, etc). If that argument is true then a petri-dish of neurons is unlik…

People having been saying for aeons that consciousness originates in the (mammalian) cortex and not in the brainstem. To justify killing all sorts of animals ;-) The whole thing makes one thing extremely clear: people are very good at moving goalposts. We've blasted past the 'turing test' for all practical purposes, but we moved the definition of 'true intelligence'. Consciousness and intelligence have long seen as h…

> If we eventually (we're not there yet, I think) create a true intelligent AI it will probably be a long time before people will accept that creating an intelligent being probably means it should have 'rights' as well.

In my view, the best LLMs clearly pass the bar for intelligence. I highly doubt they have consciousness. So the revelation of LLMs is that consciousness is not necessary for intelligence.

Re: I'm scared about biological computing

#127

Post by noosphr »

pjs_ wrote: post #25

Be careful about how you interpret that paper. It looks really impressive -- real neurons in a petri dish seem to successfully (if amateurishly) murk a few imps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRV8fSw6HaE But there's more to the setup than you might assume from a casual reading. Here's the code used for that demo: https://github.com/SeanCole02/doom-neuron So there is an entire pytorch stack wrapped around the myster…

All opinions are my own:

The whole point of the CNNs is to act like a auto encoder for input and an auto decoder for output. The only reason why this is done in the first place is because the number of electrodes in the dish is pitiful and has no chance of describing something as complex as Doom. They are there to create a latent space that can be fed through 60 odd electrodes and decode the neuron latent space into pressing buttons.

The pong version of the game was the proof of concept that neurons can learn without a latent space intermediate in either direction. Both the world state and neuronal control were raw signals: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36228614/

What I wanted to do after dish brain pong, but never had the budget for, was using live animals as the computational substrate. Use the visual cortex of one as the input, send the neural spikes to a second animals frontal lobe for computation and finally send those signals to a third animals motor cortex to physically press buttons. It's a shame we never raised enough because it wouldn't have cost more than $15m to build the hardware and do the biological proof of concept.

Re: I'm scared about biological computing

#128

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft »

kraquepype wrote: post #83
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A living bundle of neurons that can grow and learn is exciting to think about. They are, but those last few months of changing diapers when you just wish you could trust it to tell you it has to go to the potty are difficult.

Oh, I hadn't considered the waste of bio-compute modules. Will they need to nap as well? On that note, I'm so glad all my kids are past potty training.

>Will they need to nap as well?

If you're lucky. Then you'll have time to make more biocompute modules, which is pretty fun.

Re: I'm scared about biological computing

#129

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft »

azan_ wrote: post #92
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How can you have any definition of consciousness that says humans do not possess it, I'm not obligated to prove the negative. >Isn't consciousness phenomenon that's literally derived from human experience? You grew up watching and seeing all the various illusions caused by how your brain works/malfunctions, but this is the one experience you're sure is the real deal? The one telling you that it's a scientific fact t…

> You grew up watching and seeing all the various illusions caused by how your brain works/malfunctions, but this is the one experience you're sure is the real deal? The one telling you that it's a scientific fact that you have a woo-woo spirit in your skull, and that neuroscientists are going to find it any day now? No, that's your projection, I did not make any of these claims. I'm sure I have consciousness. I don'…

>I'm sure I have consciousness.

Why? How is your claim different than a Catholic who claims to have a soul? I respect their claim more than yours, oddly.

>I don't know how it works, i

How what works? This consciousness that you're sure you possess, but you can't measure, detect, define, or even really describe?

You don't have it. Everything you are can be explained without it, and it doesn't make you less than what you were if you had it. It's a nonsense idea, primitive and inherited from religion. You don't have it because there's no such thing.

Re: I'm scared about biological computing

#130

Post by noosphr »

vjvjvjvjghv wrote: post #68
philips wrote: post #2

I think this is the same ethical questions of veganism and our use/abuse of biological systems. This is an excerpt from "The Pig that Wants to be Eaten" by Julian Baggini > After forty years of vegetarianism, Max Berger was about to sit down to a feast of pork sausages, crispy bacon and pan-fried chicken breast. Max had always missed the taste of meat, but his principles were stronger than his culinary cravings. But…

Did Priscilla also want to be living in absolute misery every single day of her life? The way animals are treated while they are alive is my main objection to our farming practices and the reason why i don’t eat meat.

We can easily blast pure pleasure every second of every day of her life with direct brain stimulation. She would be so deliriously happy our lives will be inhumane by comparison.
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