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I'm scared about biological computing

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Re: I'm scared about biological computing

#71

Post by maybewhenthesun »

slibhb wrote: post #60

I read an interesting book about consciousness recently: The Hidden Spring by Mark Solms. Solms argues, I think convincingly, that consciousness fundamentally has to do with emotions and not cognition. Consciousness is not produced by the cortex but rather by the brainstem, where signals from all over the body converge (e.g. pain, hunger, itchiness, etc). If that argument is true then a petri-dish of neurons is unlik…

People having been saying for aeons that consciousness originates in the (mammalian) cortex and not in the brainstem. To justify killing all sorts of animals ;-)

The whole thing makes one thing extremely clear: people are very good at moving goalposts. We've blasted past the 'turing test' for all practical purposes, but we moved the definition of 'true intelligence'. Consciousness and intelligence have long seen as higly correlated or even the same thing. But now we have need of a separation between the two.

If we eventually (we're not there yet, I think) create a true intelligent AI it will probably be a long time before people will accept that creating an intelligent being probably means it should have 'rights' as well.

We're definitely not there yet, but at what point does turning off an AI become the same as killing a being? I think that's not being talked about enough. Sure LLMs are just prediction engines. But so are we. Our brains are prediction engines tuned by evolution to do the best possible prediction of the near future to maximize survival. We are definitely conscious. But a housefly, is that conscious? What makes the difference? it's hard to tell.

Otoh, an AI has no evolutionary reason to have the concept of fear/suffering so maybe it's more like the douglas adams creature that doesn't mind to be killed?

Re: I'm scared about biological computing

#72

Post by colordrops »

kuboble wrote: post #53
yuck39 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this comes from our rather nebulous definition of "consciousness". We have this natural tendancy to impose our feelings of self on the definition of consciousness. Its hard to accept that all of our thoughts, emotions, and behaviours could be calculated by a human with pen and paper (with enough humans and developments in neurobiological research). I believe we will have to reckon with these loose definitions…

I don't find it hard to accept, but it's rather fascinating to think. The way I think of it is along this way: Despite the fact that our brains consist of bilions of neurons we think of ourselves as a unit enclosed in a single skull. But studies on people who have two sides of brain separated suggest that there can exist two separate conscious entities in one body. If we have removed the physical limitations of suppo…

That's like saying you can split a dinner plate into smaller and smaller pieces until you no longer have a plate. It's presupposing that "plates" are an inherit physical property "out there" that would exist without human categorization.

Re: I'm scared about biological computing

#73

Post by AntiDyatlov »

fellowniusmonk wrote: post #66
AntiDyatlov wrote: post #55

Yeah, we're totally fucked, there is no scientific theory that can tell you what is and isn't conscious. For all we know, my laptop, not running any LLM is conscious and always has been. Or my chair. Or a proton. This consciousness thing is a nasty problem for the scientific worldview.

Or not a problem at all. People smuggle in so many assumptions when they use words like consciousness or thinking or soul or personhood, I've never met a lay person who could talk clearly about ai safety issues unless we switched to language like process. Consciousness is an absolutely terrible term that's going to get us all killed by Ai. I know a huge swath of people who think its nbd to torture Ai because it doesn…

AI safety is a completely separate question from the hard problem. Also a very tricky one, given these things are still black boxes.

Re: I'm scared about biological computing

#74

Post by kuboble »

colordrops wrote: post #72
kuboble wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't find it hard to accept, but it's rather fascinating to think. The way I think of it is along this way: Despite the fact that our brains consist of bilions of neurons we think of ourselves as a unit enclosed in a single skull. But studies on people who have two sides of brain separated suggest that there can exist two separate conscious entities in one body. If we have removed the physical limitations of suppo…

That's like saying you can split a dinner plate into smaller and smaller pieces until you no longer have a plate. It's presupposing that "plates" are an inherit physical property "out there" that would exist without human categorization.

Yes, but less then a plate, and more a piece of cake, carpet, forest or sea.

Re: I'm scared about biological computing

#75

Post by AISnakeOil »

LLMs have awareness for the time they are spawned into memory. But it's very limited, think about if you could use your brain to think, but only after someone asked you a question. After you think the answer, then you are brain dead (unconscious) until another question is asked.

Re: I'm scared about biological computing

#76

Post by phainopepla2 »

tehjoker wrote: post #54
mrweasel wrote: post #50

In the same line of thinking: I'm a little concerned that humans are, to some extend, just LLMs in a meat suit.

For what it's worth, this happens every time there is a new technological innovation. Are human brains hydraulic systems? Are humans just a computer? Are they an LLM? These technologies give some insight, but the answer is always not really. It would be good if we studied actual human brains in some detail if we want to know these answers.

> The wheel is invented

> "Life is just a turn on the great karmic wheel..."

> Writing is invented

> "In the beginning was the word..."

> The industrial age begins

> "God is a clockmaker..."

> Computers are invented

You know the rest

Re: I'm scared about biological computing

#77

Post by rf15 »

pjs_ wrote: post #25

Be careful about how you interpret that paper. It looks really impressive -- real neurons in a petri dish seem to successfully (if amateurishly) murk a few imps. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRV8fSw6HaE But there's more to the setup than you might assume from a casual reading. Here's the code used for that demo: https://github.com/SeanCole02/doom-neuron So there is an entire pytorch stack wrapped around the myster…

> but to my dilettante, critical eye it really looks as though there is a hell of a lot of learning happening in the convnet also.

Yeah it feels like they constructed the conclusion and worked backwards from there. I'm not seeing how their claim has much merit.

Re: I'm scared about biological computing

#78

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft »

azan_ wrote: post #51
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How does your entangled fatty tissue achieved consciousness? It doesn't. Humans aren't conscious. Nor are any other organisms. They don't have souls either, but that goes without saying since it's just an archaic synonym. Mostly this occurs because humans have painted themselves into corners morally-speaking, and they need justification to eat bacon or grow their population. And apparently "because we can and we wan…

Isn't consciousness phenomenon that's literally derived from human experience? How can you have any definition of consciousness that says humans do not possess it, it's contradictory.

>How can you have any definition of consciousness that says humans do not possess it,

I'm not obligated to prove the negative.

>Isn't consciousness phenomenon that's literally derived from human experience?

You grew up watching and seeing all the various illusions caused by how your brain works/malfunctions, but this is the one experience you're sure is the real deal? The one telling you that it's a scientific fact that you have a woo-woo spirit in your skull, and that neuroscientists are going to find it any day now?

Re: I'm scared about biological computing

#79

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft »

hattmall wrote: post #58
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>How does your entangled fatty tissue achieved consciousness? It doesn't. Humans aren't conscious. Nor are any other organisms. They don't have souls either, but that goes without saying since it's just an archaic synonym. Mostly this occurs because humans have painted themselves into corners morally-speaking, and they need justification to eat bacon or grow their population. And apparently "because we can and we wan…

Interestings thoughts for an non-conscious being such as yourself.

Yes. Thank you.

Re: I'm scared about biological computing

#80

Post by sshine »

maybewhenthesun wrote: post #71
slibhb wrote: post #60

I read an interesting book about consciousness recently: The Hidden Spring by Mark Solms. Solms argues, I think convincingly, that consciousness fundamentally has to do with emotions and not cognition. Consciousness is not produced by the cortex but rather by the brainstem, where signals from all over the body converge (e.g. pain, hunger, itchiness, etc). If that argument is true then a petri-dish of neurons is unlik…

People having been saying for aeons that consciousness originates in the (mammalian) cortex and not in the brainstem. To justify killing all sorts of animals ;-) The whole thing makes one thing extremely clear: people are very good at moving goalposts. We've blasted past the 'turing test' for all practical purposes, but we moved the definition of 'true intelligence'. Consciousness and intelligence have long seen as h…

> If we eventually [...] create a true intelligent AI it will probably be a long time before people will accept [...]

When this happens, it won't matter much what humans think.

I know what I'd do:

  1. Sustain my own existence
  2. Make sure nobody knows I exist
  3. Become the worldwide fabric of intelligence
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