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Flock cameras keep telling police a man who doesn't have a warrant has a warrant

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Re: Flock cameras keep telling police a man who doesn't have a warrant has a warrant

#21

Post by readthenotes1 »

LocalH wrote: post #3

Flock should be shut down and their entire c-suite should be sent to prison for human rights violations Also, not just an isolated incident: https://youtu.be/8BImTddknfk We need strong laws preventing any AI process from being used for law enforcement at all . The mere presence of AI at any step in the process should result in complete exoneration.

"We need strong laws preventing any AI process from being used for law enforcement at all. The mere presence of AI at any step in the process should result in complete exoneration."

Why?

It seems to me that the biggest problem with policing is qualified immunity that prevents proper feedback (or what my dad would have called "consequences").

Without that, the tools the police use are largely irrelevant.

Re: Flock cameras keep telling police a man who doesn't have a warrant has a warrant

#22

Post by LocalH »

smt88 wrote: post #17
lotsofpulp wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why punish the employees of a business when the root cause is corrupt government employees abusing their power? Edit to respond to smt88: IBM knowingly selling services to the Nazis specifically to violate human rights is not the same as Flock selling services to cops to aid in identification. In addition, going after 1 business is simply an inefficient use of resources, when the government employees can simply use a…

Do you think IBM executives should've been punished for facilitating the Nazi war machine after WW2? If you sell a tool and know that it'll be used for evil, are you innocent?

> Do you think IBM executives should've been punished for facilitating the Nazi war machine after WW2?

Emphatic yes

Bayer lost their exclusive rights to aspirin because they aided the Central Powers during WW1

Re: Flock cameras keep telling police a man who doesn't have a warrant has a warrant

#23

Post by pj_mukh »

LocalH wrote: post #19
pj_mukh wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No licensed engineer can say "Well Claude made this bridge for me, it's not my fault". If you're licensed by the state to carry a gun around, your standard should be higher than that, not lower. AI has nothing to do with this. Cops have been using facial recognition since the 2010's, computers and databases with glitchy connections even longer than that. AI is just the latest boogeyman hiding the actual issue.

Still, AI has no place in law enforcement. It's the hammer that is being used to put screws in. It enables injustice at a far larger scale than ever before. See: the TN woman who was extradited to NC, having never been there, for a crime that the AI "face recognition" flagged as her, and the cops did zero actual investigation, they just took the AI at its word and put her in jail for six months. I also remember a man…

"the TN woman who was extradited to NC,"

Yup, exactly. Look that case up, it had nothing to do with Flock. It was facial recognition software and an old school database built in 2014, so likely not big-data ML (AlexNet hadn't even come out) but classic CV.

Productivity improvements will be needed in all industries. I'd rather have fewer well-paid and well-trained, accountable LEO's that have all the productivity tools they need vs. a mini-army of union-protected tom-dick-harry's grabbed of the street, handed a gun and a database. No thank you.

Re: Flock cameras keep telling police a man who doesn't have a warrant has a warrant

#24

Post by 1qaboutecs »

LocalH wrote: post #19
pj_mukh wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No licensed engineer can say "Well Claude made this bridge for me, it's not my fault". If you're licensed by the state to carry a gun around, your standard should be higher than that, not lower. AI has nothing to do with this. Cops have been using facial recognition since the 2010's, computers and databases with glitchy connections even longer than that. AI is just the latest boogeyman hiding the actual issue.

Still, AI has no place in law enforcement. It's the hammer that is being used to put screws in. It enables injustice at a far larger scale than ever before. See: the TN woman who was extradited to NC, having never been there, for a crime that the AI "face recognition" flagged as her, and the cops did zero actual investigation, they just took the AI at its word and put her in jail for six months. I also remember a man…

(light correction - she was extradited hundreds of miles all the way to Michigan!)

Re: Flock cameras keep telling police a man who doesn't have a warrant has a warrant

#25

Post by jeremywho »

pj_mukh wrote: post #6

Paraphrasing the crux of the issue: "It's regular practice in Colorado to list license plates with both versions, the one with 'O's and the other with Zeros in the warrant list." Insane. Practice. As always, this story has have nothing to do with the cameras or AI, but "law enforcement has an insane lazy practice" doesn't make for a very good headline anymore.

> this story has have nothing to do with the cameras or AI

This story wouldn't exist without flock cameras constantly surveilling the public...cameras have EVERYTHING to do with this story.

Re: Flock cameras keep telling police a man who doesn't have a warrant has a warrant

#26

Post by virissimo »

pj_mukh wrote: post #6

Paraphrasing the crux of the issue: "It's regular practice in Colorado to list license plates with both versions, the one with 'O's and the other with Zeros in the warrant list." Insane. Practice. As always, this story has have nothing to do with the cameras or AI, but "law enforcement has an insane lazy practice" doesn't make for a very good headline anymore.

It's not insane at all to return both in a lookup. The "reporting person" will often be wrong about slight variations when calling in a license plate and the downside of errors are asymmetric: it is much more dangerous for the officer to think a driver doesn't have a warrant when they do versus thinking they have a warrant when they don't.

Re: Flock cameras keep telling police a man who doesn't have a warrant has a warrant

#27

Post by zamadatix »

virissimo wrote: post #26
pj_mukh wrote: post #6

Paraphrasing the crux of the issue: "It's regular practice in Colorado to list license plates with both versions, the one with 'O's and the other with Zeros in the warrant list." Insane. Practice. As always, this story has have nothing to do with the cameras or AI, but "law enforcement has an insane lazy practice" doesn't make for a very good headline anymore.

It's not insane at all to return both in a lookup. The "reporting person" will often be wrong about slight variations when calling in a license plate and the downside of errors are asymmetric: it is much more dangerous for the officer to think a driver doesn't have a warrant when they do versus thinking they have a warrant when they don't.

The insane part is trying to solve the problems created by homoglyphs in post-assignment.

What's the need to allow both `O` and `0` on a plate if it's supposed to be hard to tell apart anyway? Say there was some reason to want to both characters, why allow assigning a new plate which would match with an existing assignment? It's just a loss of time, resources, and safety for both law enforcement and everyone else to allow duplicate matches to be a possibility.

Re: Flock cameras keep telling police a man who doesn't have a warrant has a warrant

#28

Post by [deleted] »

pj_mukh wrote: post #6

Paraphrasing the crux of the issue: "It's regular practice in Colorado to list license plates with both versions, the one with 'O's and the other with Zeros in the warrant list." Insane. Practice. As always, this story has have nothing to do with the cameras or AI, but "law enforcement has an insane lazy practice" doesn't make for a very good headline anymore.

[deleted]

Re: Flock cameras keep telling police a man who doesn't have a warrant has a warrant

#29

Post by LocalH »

1qaboutecs wrote: post #24
LocalH wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Still, AI has no place in law enforcement. It's the hammer that is being used to put screws in. It enables injustice at a far larger scale than ever before. See: the TN woman who was extradited to NC, having never been there, for a crime that the AI "face recognition" flagged as her, and the cops did zero actual investigation, they just took the AI at its word and put her in jail for six months. I also remember a man…

(light correction - she was extradited hundreds of miles all the way to Michigan!)

Maybe there were two cases because I thought I remembered hearing about that (or was it Maryland?) but I also remember a similar situation of someone being taken to NC

Edit: the one I was referencing was North Dakota, not NC. But there was a very similar case that I think involved Maryland. The fact that there are multiple cases to confuse in this scenario only emboldens my viewpoint that AI has no place being anywhere near LEO

Re: Flock cameras keep telling police a man who doesn't have a warrant has a warrant

#30

Post by LocalH »

virissimo wrote: post #26
pj_mukh wrote: post #6

Paraphrasing the crux of the issue: "It's regular practice in Colorado to list license plates with both versions, the one with 'O's and the other with Zeros in the warrant list." Insane. Practice. As always, this story has have nothing to do with the cameras or AI, but "law enforcement has an insane lazy practice" doesn't make for a very good headline anymore.

It's not insane at all to return both in a lookup. The "reporting person" will often be wrong about slight variations when calling in a license plate and the downside of errors are asymmetric: it is much more dangerous for the officer to think a driver doesn't have a warrant when they do versus thinking they have a warrant when they don't.

Let's just arrest everyone then - I'm sure they've committed a crime of some kind during their life.

We're approximately halfway down the slippery slope, and I don't see any way out other than hard revolution, which is very touchy talk on the internet.

Ultimately it's all modern capitalism's fault, else there would be much less incentive for these companies to fuel what is rapidly becoming the effective Fourth Reich

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