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Anonymous takes down over 550 Israeli sites, wipes databases

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Re: Anonymous takes down over 550 Israeli sites, wipes databases

#121

Post by yonilevy »

pyre wrote: post #114
yonilevy wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has been proven helpful in reducing the amount of rockets fired at Israeli civillans[1]. I'll repeat the above question, what's your solution? [1] Number of rockets fired from Gaza Strip to Israel over time; a similar operation took place in December 2008 http://sonoflaser.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/%D7%A9%D7%9...

> I'll repeat the above question, what's your solution? Responses like this are not aimed to be constructive, but to put a stop to reasonable discussion. If I see that the current strategy is ineffective, I'm not allowed to say so until I have a fully-formed solution that is better? It's better to relentlessly pursue a course of action that is ineffective and has a significant cost in human lives, because 'we' can't…

I didn't mean to stop the discussion, I'm simply trying to understand your point of view (I might learn something). Do you think Israel should sit idly by while the 25K citizens of Sderot can hardly live their lives?

Re: Anonymous takes down over 550 Israeli sites, wipes databases

#122

Post by tptacek »

MichaelSalib wrote: post #120
tptacek wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it so hard to say that one entity is bad without litigating the badness of every other entity? The military wing of Hamas is bad. They shoot rockets at civilians, deliberately, presumably in a bid to draw Israel into unrestrained conflict. They are killing civilians in order to start a war. That's bad. They're bad. Bad is practically their charter. Are there worse entities? Sure. Now back to the matter at hand…

I guess I don't see why saying they're bad matter in and of itself. Of course they're bad. So what? We give weapons and money to lots of bad governments. Should we do so with Hamas? Just saying "they're bad!" doesn't really answer any interesting policy questions. But hey, if you think foreign policy is about feeling moral superiority by saying "they're bad!" over and over, please don't let me stop you.

Generally, no. I think we should tend to avoid giving money to organizations that fire missiles at civilians in order to purposefully start wars. I think that's a pretty easy line item for our foreign policy rulebook.

Re: Anonymous takes down over 550 Israeli sites, wipes databases

#123

Post by MichaelSalib »

kamaal wrote: post #111
MichaelSalib wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things like that can do far more damage than rocket attacks can. No, not really. We have cases like this: http://thinkprogress.org/yglesias/2011/05/17/201019/non-viol... and it doesn't seem to change anything. Also, is there any writer on foreign affairs more ignorant than Thomas Friedman?

Many cases like that existed during the Indian Independence movement too. One that is very famous is the Jallianwala Bagh Massacre( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre ) In which a general ordered his army to fire at a crowd of innocent women, children and men totally unarmed and assembled to celebrate a festival. Its a very famous lesson taught in history classes in schools here in India. Read the…

best way to help the Palestinians currently is give them cameras, ways to publish their stories

I've seen lots of videos like that on youtube and read lots of stories like that over the years. It doesn't seem to be helping.

far better than firing rockets and killing innocent people at the other end.

There are 2.5 million people living in Gaza. Do you expect every single one of them to agree with you? And if you don't have perfect consensus from all 2.5 million, can your plan still work? Because it seems to me that if even a small number reject your plan and fire a few $100 rockets, the non-violent efforts of the rest will be ignored and they'll be tarred with rocketers. Right?

Re: Anonymous takes down over 550 Israeli sites, wipes databases

#124

Post by AutoCorrect »

jpxxx wrote: post #50
aes256 wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a large-scale armed conflict. Civilians are going to get caught in the crossfire. Alas, it's a strange sort of conflict in which one side deliberately targets civilians, while the other does everything humanly possible to avoid them.

No, this is pretty much the regular kind of conflict. Looks like apartheid, smells like ethnic cleansing, and ends up with plenty of bodies on both sides.

nope, not the regular kind of conflict at all: for a large portion of our history the greater power would obliterate all resistance in the hostile territory, then settle the area with their own population. The Israelis are showing remarkable restraint.

The land was sparsely inhabited when the Israelis formed their own nation. They spent time, money, and effort making it a better place to live. The Palestinians should call it a day and agree to a truce, before Israel gets serious and wipes them out completely.

Re: Anonymous takes down over 550 Israeli sites, wipes databases

#125

Post by yonilevy »

AtlasLion wrote: post #79
yonilevy wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has been proven helpful in reducing the amount of rockets fired at Israeli civillans[1]. I'll repeat the above question, what's your solution? [1] Number of rockets fired from Gaza Strip to Israel over time; a similar operation took place in December 2008 http://sonoflaser.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/%D7%A9%D7%9...

So you see it an acceptable to slaughter 1,417 Palestinians, for the "feeling" of safety of Israelis. Palestinians on the other hand, shouldn't expect any safety or dignity. And again, read this book if you really are thinking about a solution. http://mikopeled.com/category/the-generals-son-by-miko-peled...

Had you asked about the death of ~500 Palestinian civillians and ~700 Hamas members in exchange for the improved safety of Israelis under the given conditions, my answer would be yes. I can't really explain it over HN comments though.

I've skimmed through the page linked, couldn't find anything relevant to the current situation. I might read further, thanks for sharing.

Re: Anonymous takes down over 550 Israeli sites, wipes databases

#126

Post by helgy »

gummydude wrote: post #28
chrisherring wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kudos for what? Engaging in illegal activites? Painting a blatantly one sided view of the conflict. Hamas weren't siting by letting their rockets collect dust. You can't claim them as innocent either.

1 sided of what? attacking innocent civillians? When did ever Israel listen to the world?

You are obviously talking about Palestinians attacking innocent civilians by launching hundreds of rockets into densely populated Israeli urban areas, right?

Re: Anonymous takes down over 550 Israeli sites, wipes databases

#127

Post by kamaal »

yonilevy wrote: post #121
pyre wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'll repeat the above question, what's your solution? Responses like this are not aimed to be constructive, but to put a stop to reasonable discussion. If I see that the current strategy is ineffective, I'm not allowed to say so until I have a fully-formed solution that is better? It's better to relentlessly pursue a course of action that is ineffective and has a significant cost in human lives, because 'we' can't…

I didn't mean to stop the discussion, I'm simply trying to understand your point of view (I might learn something). Do you think Israel should sit idly by while the 25K citizens of Sderot can hardly live their lives?

They absolutely can't. Yes, you are right.

The alternatives? Two state solution needs to go ahead. But Israel seems to be in full steam to stop the current UN bid. At the same time they don't want a one state solution either(Which more or less is sort of inevitable now).

Their neighbors don't love them much. No matter who they are, the rulers of those nations might, out of force. And that more or less is only to save their seats. But Arab spring has proven nothing is permanent. Egypt only looked super pro Israel under Mubarak and now is super pro Palestine just months after.

Absolutely the worst sort of geographical location to be and form your nation. Unless you want to be in a perpetual state of war, crisis and fighting. Yes Israel seems to have an upper hand in military wise currently, but as I said what is permanent? But Israel was not formed to be in an infinite state of war, but for Jews around the world to live in peace and without fear.

A big deadlock situation, dominated by massive distrust between both parties.

Re: Anonymous takes down over 550 Israeli sites, wipes databases

#129

Post by guelo »

maratd wrote: post #91
kamaal wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that kills kids, and UN inspectors and civilians. And of course these rocket launchers are wrong too, needless to say their rockets kill kids and civilians too.

Ok, we're moving somewhere. If the F-16s didn't exist, the rockets would still kill all those children. But if the rockets didn't exist, the F-16s wouldn't kill any children! I think we just figured out the solution to the conflict!

Although you never hear about it in most Western media Gaza militants also claim their attacks are responses to IDF attacks. The current escalation started when IDF killed a mentally challenged man and than a kid in an incursion a week ago. You can read about the tit for tats that have been going on here http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/how-israel-...

To always blame the Gaza side as the aggressors and as terrorists is just to swallow IDF propaganda whole and uncritically.

Did you know that before this current escalation Israel had struck Gaza hundred of times this year and killed 312 people including 61 kids, http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/11/15/bodies-for-... Who are the real terrorists?

Oh, and it just so happens that there's an Israel election coming up.

Re: Anonymous takes down over 550 Israeli sites, wipes databases

#130

Post by yonilevy »

kamaal wrote: post #127
yonilevy wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't mean to stop the discussion, I'm simply trying to understand your point of view (I might learn something). Do you think Israel should sit idly by while the 25K citizens of Sderot can hardly live their lives?

They absolutely can't. Yes, you are right. The alternatives? Two state solution needs to go ahead. But Israel seems to be in full steam to stop the current UN bid. At the same time they don't want a one state solution either(Which more or less is sort of inevitable now). Their neighbors don't love them much. No matter who they are, the rulers of those nations might, out of force. And that more or less is only to save…

The problem is nobody on the Palestinian side seems interested in the two state solution. Mahmoud Abbas refused a very generous offer in 2009[1], and since then kept refusing to further negotiate. Hamas aren't much into negotiating either, so there's no one to talk to.

My hope is that one of the locks in this situation is held by Iran, and once it's released we may see new opportunities.

[1]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05...

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