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Anonymous takes down over 550 Israeli sites, wipes databases

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Re: Anonymous takes down over 550 Israeli sites, wipes databases

#111

Post by kamaal »

MichaelSalib wrote: post #109
kamaal wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it was Thomas Friedman who said this, if the Palestinians resort to terror attacks, Israel will just use that to attack them more. They remain silent, and they will just go on building settlements. Either way they will lose. Gandhi's non violence movement was successful because he won the PR war by a very heavy margin. Greatest intellectuals of his time were writing essays on him, images of a thin old man, we…

Things like that can do far more damage than rocket attacks can. No, not really. We have cases like this: http://thinkprogress.org/yglesias/2011/05/17/201019/non-viol... and it doesn't seem to change anything. Also, is there any writer on foreign affairs more ignorant than Thomas Friedman?

Many cases like that existed during the Indian Independence movement too. One that is very famous is the Jallianwala Bagh Massacre(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jallianwala_Bagh_massacre) In which a general ordered his army to fire at a crowd of innocent women, children and men totally unarmed and assembled to celebrate a festival. Its a very famous lesson taught in history classes in schools here in India. Read the wiki article.

Despite such a heinous act of cowardice.

Dyer was removed from duty and forced to retire. He became a celebrated hero in Britain among people with connections to the British Raj.

It worked in his native country, but by and large it did do a lot of damage and paved a way for national awakening to fight for independence in India.

Actually the best way to help the Palestinians currently is give them cameras, ways to publish their stories. And then teach these principles of non violence. World will listen sooner or later and its far better than firing rockets and killing innocent people at the other end. And it fulfills their purpose very well.

Re: Anonymous takes down over 550 Israeli sites, wipes databases

#112

Post by tkahn6 »

kamaal wrote: post #82

As an Indian and somebody who studied the non violence moment of Gandhi both in South Africa and India. I can talk about the nature of political movements, I studied in quite a great detail. Even in India, the nature of non violence movement was not completely non violent- Its true that non violence came as a overwhelming force for the British. But the British did deal and perceive violent revolutionary sources as a…

I appreciate your analysis, but no, the rockets are more fatal and dangerous than script kiddies hitting "Go" on their LOIC application from the comfort of their homes, far away from danger. Taking down websites and leaking passwords is inconsequential juvenility when compared to the hell that Israelis in S'derot have been living in for years and years and what citizens of Tel Aviv are experiencing now.

Hamas is a homophobic, misogynistic, illiberal, theocratic terrorist organization and Anonymous is supporting them.

Re: Anonymous takes down over 550 Israeli sites, wipes databases

#113

Post by kamaal »

tkahn6 wrote: post #112
kamaal wrote: post #82

As an Indian and somebody who studied the non violence moment of Gandhi both in South Africa and India. I can talk about the nature of political movements, I studied in quite a great detail. Even in India, the nature of non violence movement was not completely non violent- Its true that non violence came as a overwhelming force for the British. But the British did deal and perceive violent revolutionary sources as a…

I appreciate your analysis, but no, the rockets are more fatal and dangerous than script kiddies hitting "Go" on their LOIC application from the comfort of their homes, far away from danger. Taking down websites and leaking passwords is inconsequential juvenility when compared to the hell that Israelis in S'derot have been living in for years and years and what citizens of Tel Aviv are experiencing now. Hamas is a ho…

Yes, that is the reason why I'm suggesting that the Palestinians must show restraint, despite the frustration. Pursue a total non violent path.

Food, medicine and water is blockaded? sure. Go on a mass hunger strike. Let the world know about it, inform them about your suffering. I guess that has already started to some extent too. Forced into a apartheid set up on your land, forced to go through humiliating check points? March peacefully with full restraint to the check point. Don't get violent no matter what. Show the world what's happening there.

This is far better than the rocket attacks.

Re: Anonymous takes down over 550 Israeli sites, wipes databases

#114

Post by pyre »

yonilevy wrote: post #67
pyre wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, bombing the Gaza Strip is clearly working. The conflict is all but over. Oh wait...

It has been proven helpful in reducing the amount of rockets fired at Israeli civillans[1]. I'll repeat the above question, what's your solution? [1] Number of rockets fired from Gaza Strip to Israel over time; a similar operation took place in December 2008 http://sonoflaser.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/%D7%A9%D7%9...

  > I'll repeat the above question, what's your solution?
Responses like this are not aimed to be constructive, but to put a stop to reasonable discussion.

If I see that the current strategy is ineffective, I'm not allowed to say so until I have a fully-formed solution that is better? It's better to relentlessly pursue a course of action that is ineffective and has a significant cost in human lives, because 'we' can't think of anything better to do?

Re: Anonymous takes down over 550 Israeli sites, wipes databases

#115

Post by pyre »

aes256 wrote: post #69
pyre wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said: > As a civilian, it is not difficult to avoid those > targets. Then you said: > It's a large-scale armed conflict. Civilians are > going to get caught in the crossfire. If it's not so hard for civilians to avoid these areas, then why is it inevitable that they be caught in the crossfire? The idea that Israel is somehow free of 'blood on their hands' because they try to warn people to leave the area for the…

> If it's not so hard to civilians to avoid these areas, then why is it inevitable that they be caught in the crossfire? Nothing is perfect. Equipment malfunctions, mistaken intel, and human error can all lead to civilian casualties, despite the best precautions.

Your comments about how 'easy' it is for civilians to leave these areas seem to be aimed at placing the blame on the civilians for not having left the area, while absolving Israel of guilt. Even if you believe that Israel is in the right for bombing Gaza it makes no sense to try and deny that innocent civilians are caught in the cross-fire. Their blood is on Israel's hands just as much as the blood of innocent Israelis is on the hands of Hamas.

Re: Anonymous takes down over 550 Israeli sites, wipes databases

#116

Post by tkahn6 »

kamaal wrote: post #113
tkahn6 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your analysis, but no, the rockets are more fatal and dangerous than script kiddies hitting "Go" on their LOIC application from the comfort of their homes, far away from danger. Taking down websites and leaking passwords is inconsequential juvenility when compared to the hell that Israelis in S'derot have been living in for years and years and what citizens of Tel Aviv are experiencing now. Hamas is a ho…

Yes, that is the reason why I'm suggesting that the Palestinians must show restraint, despite the frustration. Pursue a total non violent path. Food, medicine and water is blockaded? sure. Go on a mass hunger strike. Let the world know about it, inform them about your suffering. I guess that has already started to some extent too. Forced into a apartheid set up on your land, forced to go through humiliating check poi…

Well that is an interesting proposal but Israel is occupying the West Bank and blockading Gaza out of security concerns, not out of any sort of program of racial subjugation (remember that there are Arabs and other ethnic groups in Israel that have full rights and representation under Israeli law).

By that I mean to say that if there existed the state of affairs, the political will, where a totally non-violent path was desirable and possible for Palestinians to pursue, there wouldn't be a need for these policies which they would hypothetically be protesting against in the first place.

Re: Anonymous takes down over 550 Israeli sites, wipes databases

#117

Post by oelewapperke »

kamaal wrote: post #113
tkahn6 wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your analysis, but no, the rockets are more fatal and dangerous than script kiddies hitting "Go" on their LOIC application from the comfort of their homes, far away from danger. Taking down websites and leaking passwords is inconsequential juvenility when compared to the hell that Israelis in S'derot have been living in for years and years and what citizens of Tel Aviv are experiencing now. Hamas is a ho…

Yes, that is the reason why I'm suggesting that the Palestinians must show restraint, despite the frustration. Pursue a total non violent path. Food, medicine and water is blockaded? sure. Go on a mass hunger strike. Let the world know about it, inform them about your suffering. I guess that has already started to some extent too. Forced into a apartheid set up on your land, forced to go through humiliating check poi…

Except that will not accomplish Palestinian goals at all : if Palestinians show restraint, that will be followed immediately by Israeli restraint, and there will be peace.

Palestinians (well, Hamas, but they do have a lot of popular support, probably close to 50%) want to conquer Israel, so obviously they attack. They inspire their life on their islamic prophet, who amongst other things was a person that personally started over 13 wars and had over 1000 people executed on a whim.

I don't understand how anyone can reasonably expect non-violence from them and be taken seriously.

Re: Anonymous takes down over 550 Israeli sites, wipes databases

#118

Post by oelewapperke »

pyre wrote: post #114
yonilevy wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has been proven helpful in reducing the amount of rockets fired at Israeli civillans[1]. I'll repeat the above question, what's your solution? [1] Number of rockets fired from Gaza Strip to Israel over time; a similar operation took place in December 2008 http://sonoflaser.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/%D7%A9%D7%9...

> I'll repeat the above question, what's your solution? Responses like this are not aimed to be constructive, but to put a stop to reasonable discussion. If I see that the current strategy is ineffective, I'm not allowed to say so until I have a fully-formed solution that is better? It's better to relentlessly pursue a course of action that is ineffective and has a significant cost in human lives, because 'we' can't…

How about we take the declaration of human rights solution. As soon as one side in the conflict uses non-clearly marked military bases and/or forces, the other side gains the right to fire on civilians if they suspect (not: can prove) that there are disguised combatants and/or military equipment near them.

Does that sound reasonable ?

If Israel stops fighting today, tomorrow the holocaust restarts. If Palestine stops fighting today, tomorrow we have peace.

Re: Anonymous takes down over 550 Israeli sites, wipes databases

#119

Post by tptacek »

MichaelSalib wrote: post #101
tzs wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about putting Hamas' feet to the fire? They have been condemned by human rights groups for widespread arrests, torture, and killing of their political opponents in Gaza. They have simply been terrible for the Palestinian people. Besides suppressing political opposition, they also purposefully try to launch attacks from heavily populated civilian areas hoping that the civilians will end up acting as human shields.

So, Hamas is about average for governments that the US supports?

Why is it so hard to say that one entity is bad without litigating the badness of every other entity? The military wing of Hamas is bad. They shoot rockets at civilians, deliberately, presumably in a bid to draw Israel into unrestrained conflict. They are killing civilians in order to start a war. That's bad. They're bad. Bad is practically their charter.

Are there worse entities? Sure. Now back to the matter at hand.

Re: Anonymous takes down over 550 Israeli sites, wipes databases

#120

Post by MichaelSalib »

tptacek wrote: post #119
MichaelSalib wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, Hamas is about average for governments that the US supports?

Why is it so hard to say that one entity is bad without litigating the badness of every other entity? The military wing of Hamas is bad. They shoot rockets at civilians, deliberately, presumably in a bid to draw Israel into unrestrained conflict. They are killing civilians in order to start a war. That's bad. They're bad. Bad is practically their charter. Are there worse entities? Sure. Now back to the matter at hand…

I guess I don't see why saying they're bad matter in and of itself.

Of course they're bad.

So what? We give weapons and money to lots of bad governments. Should we do so with Hamas? Just saying "they're bad!" doesn't really answer any interesting policy questions.

But hey, if you think foreign policy is about feeling moral superiority by saying "they're bad!" over and over, please don't let me stop you.

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