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How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

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Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#151

Post by deaux »

nightfly wrote: post #147
eunit250 wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably different if you have a family, but I have quit jobs over moral implications no problem. Most people have pretty flimsy morals and will do anything to keep the money rolling in.

Most people have no safety net and if the money stops rolling in their life is effectively ruined for several years

Most people in the world? Potentially, though I doubt the "life ruined for years" part holds for >50%.

Most people on HN? Definite no. Most people on HN who work in roles where they're exposed to such mass surveillance or other evil at scale (like Meta)? Absolutely not.

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#152

Post by Teever »

try_the_bass wrote: post #145
Teever wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes that frees the people with a conscience to work on endeavours that challenge these corrupt institutions. That’s a good thing. It isn’t really a radical or counterintuitive thing to say ‘don’t do evil work for evil people.’ People who give mealy mouth excuses like ‘I was just following orders’ or ‘I was just a contractor’ are part of the problem.

> Yes that frees the people with a conscience to work on endeavours that challenge these corrupt institutions. That... Isn't really how that works in the real world, though. What happens when people with conscience leave legitimate institutions is that they lose legitimacy. Now you have a legitimate institution with power and no conscience, and a myriad of non-legitimate institutions with little power and some consci…

That sounds great in theory, but how did it work out in practice?

It's been thirteen years since Snowden, and twenty years since Mark Klein, and there have been no real reforms in the system, people continue to work for them, and with them and it's only gotten worse.

The course of action that you suggest is exactly what has lead America into a Mad King scenario with big tech oligarchs and theocratic running the show with China on the cusp of becoming the world hegemon.

People keep chasing that carrot, keep working for the man and the end result is that they to chase that carrot a little bit harder, burning them out until the man replaces them with someone new just as eager to chase that carrot a little harder.

And all along the way the noose around all of us tightens a little bit more the temperature outside gets a little bit hotter and America's grip on the world weakens.

Where does this go?

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#153

Post by krupan »

trinsic2 wrote: post #118
ambicapter wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything _is_ political, as the other comment says. The problem is that no one talks about "governance", they just talk about "politics", which is not the same thing. Governance is the question of what good government should look like. Politics is just about accumulating power.

that is a good way of looking at it. I wonder though, if power is a bad thing in and of itself. I know that there will always be power. I would rather have people with good intentions have it then the opposite. Not sure how that will happen. I think when more good people get involved I guess.

Nope. Power corrupts. Or as Frank Herbert said it, power attracts the corruptible. The solution is to not give anyone that much power over you!

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#155

Post by globalnode »

hackthemack wrote: post #94
anonymousiam wrote: post #66

"One big change impacting surveillance was clear: Prior to September 11, the U.S. had what could reasonably be called a “wall” separating foreign surveillance for national security purposes done by the NSA from domestic surveillance for law enforcement purposes done by the FBI." It turns out that the above statement is not entirely correct. I was aware of this rule at the time (early 90's), and was very surprised to…

It is my understanding that the US Government set up a system, long, long ago, where the British would spy on Americans and then the British would supply the information to the NSA, thereby the NSA is not technically spying on American citizens. Words mean nothing. They can be interpreted how ever they need to be interpreted by those in power. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

australia and america have the same agreement. these countries may be dragons but live in fear of losing their hoard (borrowing that analogy from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47963204)

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#156

Post by contingencies »

UpsilonAlpha wrote: post #150
anonymousiam wrote: post #66

"One big change impacting surveillance was clear: Prior to September 11, the U.S. had what could reasonably be called a “wall” separating foreign surveillance for national security purposes done by the NSA from domestic surveillance for law enforcement purposes done by the FBI." It turns out that the above statement is not entirely correct. I was aware of this rule at the time (early 90's), and was very surprised to…

You don't sign NDAs with the government, you sign a lifetime obligation [1] where the penalty is treason. I doubt you did or saw any such things. 1. https://media.defense.gov/2021/Oct/18/2002875198/-1/-1/0/NSA...

If you are not a direct government employee you maybe sign an NDA.

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#157

Post by sandworm101 »

UpsilonAlpha wrote: post #150
anonymousiam wrote: post #66

"One big change impacting surveillance was clear: Prior to September 11, the U.S. had what could reasonably be called a “wall” separating foreign surveillance for national security purposes done by the NSA from domestic surveillance for law enforcement purposes done by the FBI." It turns out that the above statement is not entirely correct. I was aware of this rule at the time (early 90's), and was very surprised to…

You don't sign NDAs with the government, you sign a lifetime obligation [1] where the penalty is treason. I doubt you did or saw any such things. 1. https://media.defense.gov/2021/Oct/18/2002875198/-1/-1/0/NSA...

The existance and general operation of no such agency and echalon were common knowledge. I remember reading about them in Tom Clancy novels. Fantasy, but also widely understood reality. One doesnt need to have a clearance to count satalite dishes at like pine gap and realize what is happening.

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#158

Post by contingencies »

anildash wrote: post #141

Shameless plug (as a board member): If you are interested in the book that this is from, a great way to pick it up is on the EFF website, where your purchase helps EFF keep up the fight for privacy. https://www.eff.org/Privacys-Defender

Thanks for your work.

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#159

Post by [deleted] »

hackthemack wrote: post #94
anonymousiam wrote: post #66

"One big change impacting surveillance was clear: Prior to September 11, the U.S. had what could reasonably be called a “wall” separating foreign surveillance for national security purposes done by the NSA from domestic surveillance for law enforcement purposes done by the FBI." It turns out that the above statement is not entirely correct. I was aware of this rule at the time (early 90's), and was very surprised to…

It is my understanding that the US Government set up a system, long, long ago, where the British would spy on Americans and then the British would supply the information to the NSA, thereby the NSA is not technically spying on American citizens. Words mean nothing. They can be interpreted how ever they need to be interpreted by those in power. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

[deleted]

Re: How Mark Klein told the EFF about Room 641A [book excerpt]

#160

Post by gregw2 »

mgiampapa wrote: post #125
trinsic2 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its been going on for decades... I don't know if there is an answer to this problem

Encrypt everything, all the time, everywhere, use quantum hardened encryption wherever possible.

This does not work if your communication enpoint is the same as your encryption endpoint.

Or you don't control your key material.

Or your tech supply chain.

Or leave your device unattended.

Or aren't susceptible to the same "five dollar wrench" attacks used by certain in-person Bitcoin wallet thievestgat are also available to state actors.

I could go on...

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