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Spain's parliament will act against massive IP blockages by LaLiga

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Re: Spain's parliament will act against massive IP blockages by LaLiga

#151

Post by hnlmorg »

walrus01 wrote: post #136
hnlmorg wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Taken to its logical conclusion, and I do mean "logical" and not "rhetorically overblown for effect", this comes perilously close to just declaring that the value of the Internet is so net negative due to piracy that it should just be shut down in Spain. What you’ve described there is completely overblown for rhetoric. The internet is still needed for delivering legal streams of matches. So there’s never going to b…

Blocking large swathes of cloudflare IP space at the entire CIDR range level has significant negative repercussions on thousands of other completely non-football related companies, governments, non-profits, personal projects who are hosting content on them. It's absolutely unfair to those impacted by this extremely heavy handed method. It's like saying there's some people who have been seen selling counterfeit made i…

I completely agree and nothing I posted suggested otherwise.

My point was just that Amazon is large enough to scare La Liga in ways that nearly no other online retailer is. Ergo La Liga wouldn’t ever push for a total internet block like the GP claimed.

Re: Spain's parliament will act against massive IP blockages by LaLiga

#152

Post by embedding-shape »

mzajc wrote: post #131
embedding-shape wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bit hard to get notified by the ISP if you effectively try to side-step the way they notify you, don't you think? Also bit weird to blame them for that. If I recall correctly, if you try to access the IP directly you get the same notification. No football game on right now though so cannot check. Edit: In fact, I'm not sure they do DNS filtering at all actually, it may be just based on IP, can't remember off-hand, co…

ISPs have your contact information, and they can also put up notices on their own website. Hijacking somebody else's website with forged replies isn't "the way they notify you," it's a man-in-the-middle attack, and users shouldn't be trained or encouraged to accept it.

> ISPs have your contact information, and they can also put up notices on their own website.

So whenever you see "Connection Refused" your instinct is to go to your ISPs website?

I also don't think it's "hijacking someone's website", then it'd be global, instead it is a man-in-the-middle attack, serving different traffic than the user intended.

Re: Spain's parliament will act against massive IP blockages by LaLiga

#153

Post by dariosalvi78 »

booi wrote: post #72
matteason wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cloudflare are very much pushing back: https://www.laliga.com/en-GB/news/official-statement-in-rela...

This statement really makes no sense.. > Google, Cloudflare, VPN providers, and other entities facilitating piracy are responsible for the illegal activities they enable and profit from. Why wouldn't ISPs be responsible too? or the cable modem providers? or the computer providers? or your eyes. Let's just blame all those things and not the person that made it or the person that consumes it.

it's La Liga, what do you expect?

Re: Spain's parliament will act against massive IP blockages by LaLiga

#154

Post by otherme123 »

dwedge wrote: post #90
akersten wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay and Chrome provide a service displaying the illegal content to the user. What now?

Can you get closer to the source than chrome? Can you get closer to the source than cloudflare? Don't be disingenuous just because you like the company.

Sure I can: whatever hosting service they are using. Find where they are hosted, e.g. AWS, and ask Amazon to bring a zone down for Spain for 5 hours.

Re: Spain's parliament will act against massive IP blockages by LaLiga

#155

Post by otherme123 »

rvnx wrote: post #112
rtkwe wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any action by cloudflare before a court order or notice would be proactive. There's no way to effectively block streamers of live shows because they can create new sites or accounts for each event and by the time they're found, reported and cloudflare reasonably reviews and acts on them the event will be long over. What do you expect cloudflare to actually do about these streams?

A report content form, like DMCA, with support people behind processing the tickets. It already exists. When there is phishing or pedo content, you think they wait for court order or react to abuse ? They are distributing content through their servers, not just displaying it. Every hosting and CDN companies has abuse department, it's a normal part of the process. Here, Cloudflare is aware, and chooses to ignore the a…

Afaik, Cloudflare are asked to block an IP, to which they answer that is not a valid IP, but a shared one, please be more precise. Being more precise takes effort and time, so they opted to ban the IP at ISP level, and they don't have to ask anyone.

Re: Spain's parliament will act against massive IP blockages by LaLiga

#156

Post by here2learnstuff »

dbbk wrote: post #65

Genuinely never thought I'd see the day. This has been horrible for me running an event ticketing business in Spain... where downtime is basically not acceptable.

Are you saying your event-ticketing business having downtime is not acceptable or that having downtime for the Spanish demographic is not acceptable?

Re: Spain's parliament will act against massive IP blockages by LaLiga

#157

Post by dwedge »

otherme123 wrote: post #154
dwedge wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you get closer to the source than chrome? Can you get closer to the source than cloudflare? Don't be disingenuous just because you like the company.

Sure I can: whatever hosting service they are using. Find where they are hosted, e.g. AWS, and ask Amazon to bring a zone down for Spain for 5 hours.

"find out where they are hosted" is doing a lot of lifting here against a massive company whose business model is hiding where end users are hiding.

Re: Spain's parliament will act against massive IP blockages by LaLiga

#158

Post by AnthonyMouse »

babypuncher wrote: post #63
estebank wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the one hand, I would tend to agree that making things painful enough might force people to stop ignoring and improve things. On the other, after seeing waves hands at everything since 2016 makes me very skeptical of accelerationism: sometimes things just get worse and worse, there's no bottom to bounce from. Or maybe we just never really hit rock bottom?

The bottom is just so much farther down than we remember. Tremendous progress was made in the 20th century, particularly in the aftermath of WWII, and we've kind of just been coasting on it for 50 years. Accelerationism was always a terrible idea.

The premise of accelerationism isn't to destroy the world, it's to escape a local maxima.

You have some medium-okay but clearly sub-optimal status quo and then a bunch of defenders resisting all change because "things are fine" even though they should be better than fine, or institutions that have been captured by corrupt interests but that situation is stable as long as they continue to provide bread and circuses. If it stays mediocre then everyone muddles along; if it gets worse then people stop ignoring the issue and actually address it so that it gets better.

The problem is, it's not just bread and circuses. People have been divided into camps for the purpose of directing their dissatisfaction against each other instead of the entities responsible.

So people get mad when things go wrong but the perpetrators convince them that the enemy is their neighbors and they need to direct their resources to defeating each other instead of working together to solve the actual problems.

For example, when SOPA/PIPA was defeated, it not only wasn't just along party lines, there was more opposition to it from Republicans than Democrats:

https://projects.propublica.org/sopa/pipa.html

So who we like here are e.g. Ron Wyden (D-OR) and Rand Paul (R-KY), because they both opposed it, even though they're in different parties. But then the "parties matter, not candidates" people would have you trying to oust everyone with the disfavored letter next to their name even if they did the right thing there. Which helps the baddies win by convincing you to oust good candidates from the "bad" party in favor of bad candidates from the "good" party, and over time makes both parties worse even as people become increasingly dissatisfied with the way things are going.

Re: Spain's parliament will act against massive IP blockages by LaLiga

#159

Post by thaumasiotes »

brendoelfrendo wrote: post #88
thaumasiotes wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would it look like if you sued La Liga for using their lawful blocking power in a way that injured you?

A very expensive lawsuit that, even if successful, will result in a difficult to enforce judgment?

What's difficult about enforcing a judgment against La Liga? They're as public as it's possible to be.

Re: Spain's parliament will act against massive IP blockages by LaLiga

#160

Post by _flux »

pier25 wrote: post #44
dwedge wrote: post #19

I'm torn on this. It always should have gone through the courts, but the fact is that cloudflare are providing access to illegal content and not doing anything about it. They were left with two choices if Cloudflare refuse to act. Either accept it (oh well, too big to fail), or block them. I dislike what is happening but I kind of like that they don't care about the size of Cloudflare and hold them as accountable as…

> the fact is that cloudflare are providing access to illegal content Why make CloudFlare ultimately responsible though? There are lots of companies between users and the servers providing pirated content. Cloudflare is just one step in the whole chain. Why not eg block Google Chrome? In any case, blocking Cloudflare was a stupid thing to do. Especially because it didn't anything to solve the actual problem.

I think the difference is that Cloudflare is the one party providing streaming access for their customers: not just anyone can proxy the data through Cloudflare, they need to be a Cloudflare customer first.

When I'm posting this message to Hacker News, I'm the "customer" of this website. I'm not customer of all the intermediate nodes in the chain. So if I were to write something illegal and HN would be irresponsive to takedown requests, the courts could order the IP of HN to be blocked, not some intermediate ISP.

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