201–210 of 496 posts
I was also blocked from the Zig github repository, after being a frequent contributor to issue discussions, for reasons unknown (I was never informed, I just found out when I could no longer put a thumbs up on a comment).
As a heavy AI-assisted open source code creator (and someone with 40+ years of dev experience), this seems wrong-headed to me. I think it is an excellent policy, as they say, to "value contributors over their contributions," but this policy excludes all potential contributors who use the latest tools. It will eventually doom zig to a smaller "artisanal" pool of contributors, rather than welcoming newbies and helping…
“Artisanal” and “Zig” are just about synonymous
"We wont take contributions from non hand written assembly code, these C 'high level' language patches are not allowed. Zig is a great project and language but it will die on this hill.
It's a critique of low effort PRs compared to the high effort review they require.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
Pretty much sums up the LLM fanbase.
I don't think it's the complete fanbase. However, there are lots of people in the world who live their whole life by vibing. It's a viable way to live and sometimes it's the only way to live. But they have a very loose relationship with truth and reason. Programming was a domain that filtered out those people because they found it hard to succeed at it. LLM's have changed that and it's a huge problem. It's hard to kn…
I don't think this is realistic. I'm a good programmer, and it speeds up my work a lot, from "make sense of this 10 repo project I haven't worked on recently" to "for this next step I need a vpn multiplexer written in a language I don't use" to, yeah, "this 10k line patch lets me see parts of design space we never could have explored before." I think it's all about understanding the blast radius. Sonetimes a lot of code is helpful, sometimes more like a lot of help proving a fact about one line of code.
Like Simon says, if I'm driving by someone else's project, I don't send the generated pull request, I just file the bug report / repro that would generate it.
> This makes a lot of sense to me. It relates to an idea I've seen circulating elsewhere: if a PR was mostly written by an LLM, why should a project maintainer spend time reviewing and discussing that PR as opposed to firing up their own LLM to solve the same problem? The same argument applies to open source itself. Why use someone's project when you can just have the robot write your own? It's especially true if the…
> Why use someone's project when you can just have the robot write your own? I've been thinking about this a bunch recently, and I've realized that the thing I value most in software now isn't robust tests or thorough documentation - an LLM can spit those out in a few minutes. It's usage. I want to use software which other people have used before me. I want them to have encountered the bugs and sharp edges and sanded…
Can it if we stop defining "robust tests" as "a lot of test code lines" and "good documentation" as "lengthy documentation"?
Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you run your writing through an LLM, it can poke holes in your argument, organize your ideas better, or point out that your tone is hostile/dismissive. It doesn’t need to be a replacement for writing or thinking, especially if you’re learning along the way.
So - in that way - LLM will be Your mentor, it will shape Your way of thinking according to algorithms and datasets stuffed into by corporate creators. Do You really want it? There is also a second face of that: people are lazy. They wouldn't develop their own skills but rather they would off-load tasks to LLM-s, so their communicative abilities will be fade away. That's looks like a strong dystopia for me.
How is this mutually exclusive with teaching better than most humans? Part of these "corporate" datasets include deep knowledge of the world's best literature and philosophy, for instance. Why can't it be both?
> Do You really want it?
If I'm in a hurry, don't know where to start, or don't have money for someone to teach me—sure.
> There is also a second face of that: people are lazy. They wouldn't develop their own skills but rather they would off-load tasks to LLM-s, so their communicative abilities will be fade away.
This is a recapitulation of the Luddite argument during the Industrial Revolution. And it's valid, but it has consequences for all technological change, not just this one. There was a world before Google, the Web, the Internet, personal computing, and computers. The same argument applies across the board, and the pre-AI / post-AI cutoff looks arbitrary.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
Pretty much sums up the LLM fanbase.
I don't think it's the complete fanbase. However, there are lots of people in the world who live their whole life by vibing. It's a viable way to live and sometimes it's the only way to live. But they have a very loose relationship with truth and reason. Programming was a domain that filtered out those people because they found it hard to succeed at it. LLM's have changed that and it's a huge problem. It's hard to kn…
Management, unsurprisingly deemed those precious. They could email them out anytime, working weekend to fix problems their kind were the cause. Sure sir.
They excel at communication. Perfecting the art.
Now LLMs are there to accelerate the trend.
The funny thing LLM's are amazingly good with writing in Zig. They could inspect stdlib source code to fix compatibility issues with newer compilers and quite prolific with idioms. For example I got a working application with minimal prompt like "I need an X11 tray icon app showing battery charge level". BTW result: https://github.com/baverman/battray/ Now I'm trying to implement a full taskbar to replace bmpanel2. R…
In order to even say this, you need to have knowledge and understanding about the language. I suspect you are not the intended target of this policy. They are defending their project with a harsh policy, knowing full well there are false negatives. Contributions for FOSS was already in borderline crisis mode before LLMs so it makes sense they’re desperate.
Their bet would be Venn diagram of LLM user overlaps with irresponsible. I think that’s correct, but not because good programmers suddenly become irresponsible when they use LLMs, but rather that an enormous barrage of bad programmers can participate in domains they otherwise wouldn’t even know where to begin.
However, I wanted to give Zig a try in an agentic coding scenario. For tasks that would take a few seconds when choosing Python, Java, or JavaScript as a target language, it would take tens of minutes and waste millions of tokens before producing anything.
Almost any model gets stuck trying to figure out the correct syntax and correct libraries for a specific Zig version, fighting with compiling and figuring out function call parameters, frequently taking it wrong and going on side quests for things that should just work.
I guess the relative lack of resources and the language instability don't play well for models that try to generate Zig code. Using specific tools like zig-mcp helps only a bit.
Until LLM support for Zig improves (one needs to spend significant resources for that to happen), LLM-generated Zig code won't be good enough for either Zig programmers or Zig contributors.
LLMs are not smart as the LLM vendors claimed to be. If they are, we wouldn't be having this conversation because they will be fully autonomous People who blindly submits LLM generated code or do not cite its usage really need to stop doing it
They won't I suspect. If there isn't any good way to give them a good smack for doing it then I don't know what would make them stop.