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The Zig project's rationale for their anti-AI contribution policy

simonwillison.net

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Re: The Zig project's rationale for their anti-AI contribution policy

#91
From https://kristoff.it/blog/contributor-poker-and-ai/:

"Unfortunately the reality of LLM-based contributions has been mostly negative for us, from an increase in background noise due to worthless drive-by PRs full of hallucinations (that wouldn’t even compile, let alone pass CI), to insane 10 thousand line long first time PRs. In-between we also received plenty of PRs that looked fine on the surface, some of which explicitly claimed to not have made use of LLMs, but where follow-up discussions immediately made it clear that the author was sneakily consulting an LLM and regurgitating its mistake-filled replies to us."

Re: The Zig project's rationale for their anti-AI contribution policy

#92

[flagged]

>As always, the most ethical thing to do is to just ignore any anti-LLM policies and not disclose anything

How does this have anything to do with ethics? Its their project not yours, they can reject your PR for whatever reason, including you using LLMs for developing that PR. Also they're not assuming autonomous agents submitting PRs. They're saying that they do not accept PRs where any part of the thinking process was outsourced to a LLM.

Even if you disagree with their opinion, the ethical thing to do is to not interact and move on. Not to try to sneak in your LLM assisted PRs without the maintainers consent.

Re: The Zig project's rationale for their anti-AI contribution policy

#93

From https://kristoff.it/blog/contributor-poker-and-ai/ : "Unfortunately the reality of LLM-based contributions has been mostly negative for us, from an increase in background noise due to worthless drive-by PRs full of hallucinations (that wouldn’t even compile, let alone pass CI), to insane 10 thousand line long first time PRs. In-between we also received plenty of PRs that looked fine on the surface, some of which…

Pretty much sums up the LLM fanbase.

Re: The Zig project's rationale for their anti-AI contribution policy

#94
On multiple occasions over the last months, I have been wishing the Zig/ZSF team would use LLMs. I've found many copy&paste errors that simply wouldn't exist if mundane tasks were delegated to a good LLM. It's even in the Zig community, I've seen PRs to some projects I'm interested in boosting how it was all human made, and containing all kinds of trivial logical errors that even the worst LLM would catch.

Re: The Zig project's rationale for their anti-AI contribution policy

#95

I don't think I've ever heard anything positive about Zig. Every time I've seen the project mentioned is them using bizarre black and white moral judgements to justify stupid decisions.

You need to look past this. Zig is an excellent low-level language. Thanks to the comptime features, you can have high-level looking APIs while staying down to the metal. It's not for everyone, obviously, but as a language, it is really good.

Re: The Zig project's rationale for their anti-AI contribution policy

#96
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I value software that reveals knowledge. The frontier LLMs were trained on all the code that institutions had been keeping to themselves. So they're revealing programing know-how on a scale that just wasn't possible with open source. LLMs are the ultimate Prometheus. Information is more accessible and useful now than it's ever been.

I promise you, "the code that institutions had been keeping to themselves" is not nearly as special or good as you are implying here.

True.

I have worked during several decades in many companies, located in many countries, in a few continents, from startups to some of the biggest companies in their fields. Therefore I have seen many proprietary programs.

On average, proprietary programs are not better than open-source programs, but usually worse, because they are reviewed by fewer people and because frequently the programmers who write them may be stressed by having to meet unrealistic timelines for the projects.

The proprietary programs have greater quantity, not quality, by being written by a greater number of programmers working full-time on them, while much work on open-source projects is done in spare time by people occupied with something else.

Many proprietary programs can do things which cannot be done by open-source programs, but only because of access to documentation that is kept secret in the hope of preventing competition.

While lawyers, and other people who do not understand how research and development is really done, put a lot of weight in the so-called "intellectual property" of a company, which they believe to be embodied in things like the source code of proprietary programs or the design files for some hardware, the reality is that I have nowhere seen anything of substantial value in this so-called IP. Everywhere, what was really valuable in the know-how of the company was not the final implementation that could be read in some source code, but the knowledge about the many other solutions that had been tried before and they worked worse or not at all. This knowledge was too frequently not written down in any documentation. Knowing which are the dead ends is a great productivity boost for an experienced team, because any recent graduate could list many alternative ways of solving a problem, but most of them would not be the right choice in certain specific circumstances.

Re: The Zig project's rationale for their anti-AI contribution policy

#97

On multiple occasions over the last months, I have been wishing the Zig/ZSF team would use LLMs. I've found many copy&paste errors that simply wouldn't exist if mundane tasks were delegated to a good LLM. It's even in the Zig community, I've seen PRs to some projects I'm interested in boosting how it was all human made, and containing all kinds of trivial logical errors that even the worst LLM would catch.

If you see them, why don't you help squash them?

Re: The Zig project's rationale for their anti-AI contribution policy

#98

On multiple occasions over the last months, I have been wishing the Zig/ZSF team would use LLMs. I've found many copy&paste errors that simply wouldn't exist if mundane tasks were delegated to a good LLM. It's even in the Zig community, I've seen PRs to some projects I'm interested in boosting how it was all human made, and containing all kinds of trivial logical errors that even the worst LLM would catch.

If you see them, why don't you help squash them?

I did.

Re: The Zig project's rationale for their anti-AI contribution policy

#99
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still fairly obvious just by skimming the code. The best AI models are still quite far from the best human developers in ability and especially in code quality.

When the best AI models are the same or better than the best[1] human developers, what then? We're already at the point talking about best vs. best.

If that happens and we have a way of reliably knowing if some code is produced to that high quality, then I think we probably can accept that AI coding is the only sensible option.

We definitely are not close to that point though and it's unclear if/when we will get there.

Re: The Zig project's rationale for their anti-AI contribution policy

#100

I don't think I've ever heard anything positive about Zig. Every time I've seen the project mentioned is them using bizarre black and white moral judgements to justify stupid decisions.

You have to be wilfully blind, then. It gets rather frequently praised on HN (as much as any niche language can be), and they certainly don't make black-and-white moral judgements often.
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