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Framework Laptop 13 Pro: Major Upgrades and Linux Front and Center

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Re: Framework Laptop 13 Pro: Major Upgrades and Linux Front and Center

#81

Post by aquariusDue »

Forgeties79 wrote: post #14
maxloh wrote: post #12

I like their openness on hardware design. They open sourced their design under CC-BY-4.0 (surprisingly no NC!) in hope that it could enable reuse [1]. However, the whole thing is overpriced. Quoting kingsleyopara's comment 4 days ago [2], ...matching specs it comes out as more expensive than the MBP - even worse when you factor in potential discounts/sales which framework doesn't offer. Framework 13 Pro: £2064 (Ultra…

I mean yeah they’re right but it’s not like the difference is particularly staggering. And unfortunately having control and quality runs a premium these days. Plus depending on what you’re upgrading it could very well save you money in the long run, as the parts you can replace or upgrade yourself in an MBpro are few and far between. The few things you can replace often cost an arm and a leg and require way more tech…

I'm not hating on Framework and I'm genuinely rooting for them but the last part is a bit of a weird PRO to me.

What else can it run besides Windows and insert-long-list-of-Linux-distros-here compared to your run of the mill laptop? Can it run OpenBSD, NetBSD or FreeBSD without issues? How about Haiku if we're feeling crazy?

Something that I think is a better PRO (if we're talking operating systems) is that from what I understand (though I might be wrong) is that you could use the Storage Expansion Card and have Windows installed on it for those moments when you have to boot into Windows in anger due to some use case not served by Linux (Adobe Reader I'm looking at you). Now that's nifty to me.

Re: Framework Laptop 13 Pro: Major Upgrades and Linux Front and Center

#82

Post by skippyboxedhero »

loloquwowndueo wrote: post #80
growt wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well you can sell your old MacBook. And they hold their value pretty well. So I don’t know if framework would actually come out ahead financially.

What’s the advantage of buying a used MacBook if, since they hold their value well, it won’t be much cheaper than a new one?

Its like a Tesla, their values only go up. Stop asking questions, this is a legitimate investment.

Re: Framework Laptop 13 Pro: Major Upgrades and Linux Front and Center

#83

Post by big-and-small »

maxloh wrote: post #66
ranger_danger wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the whole thing is overpriced Economy of scale... they cannot make (or sell) anywhere near as many as Apple does, so of course it's going to be more expensive. Just like that "Made in USA" grill brush that costs 75 dollars (but guess where the machines that make it come from).

IMO, Apple is already the standard of overpriced compared to other laptop vendors, and Framework is even more overpriced than the overpricer!

Macbooks were not overpriced since M1 Air released in 2020. Of course Apple was not competing in low-end segment back then, but $1200-$1400 M1 just outperformed all the competitors for years. Now with Neo release they basically outplayed everyone in low-end segment.

Framework offer is completely different - they sell you upgradable computer that supports your right to repair.

Re: Framework Laptop 13 Pro: Major Upgrades and Linux Front and Center

#84

Post by bigyabai »

kristopolous wrote: post #78
dijit wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? If for software: thats the point. If for hardware (because its not serviceable): then thats what the framework is fixing. It is no secret that Apple hardware is superior right now. If you don’t like that as a fact then convince Dell/HP/Lenovo to do better. It is a valid north star for Framework in the current ecosystem to differentiate but chase the best in market. — Also, your comments are devoid of things that…

It's not that, it's the follower product insistence. I've got a strong universal distaste for it. Let's take an industry where there isn't any: showers. You go to a hotel or an Airbnb and you can't figure out how to turn on the shower. They're all so different This is actually great. People are being very innovative and creative. That's human flourishing and ingenuity. You go to the electronics store and all the lapt…

Creative diversity doesn't pay bills. If you're going to sell one or two laptop designs, it damn well better be what the majority of people expect from a laptop.

While you're certainly within your right to buy different types of hardware, I don't think you're right to criticize convergent design. There already are wildly different laptop alternatives like the iPad, which is mainly held back by it's refusal to accept basic laptop features that Mac and PC users take for granted.

Re: Framework Laptop 13 Pro: Major Upgrades and Linux Front and Center

#85

Post by linsomniac »

kristopolous wrote: post #33

This is what I don't get, among computer uses, apple macs are a minority. I even went around at Linux conferences and counted, like 30-40%. Why are they so so dedicated to being as much as a look and feel clone as Mac as possible? I've got zero interest in a MacBook chaser. It's not like those are inaccessible to me. I've voluntarily said no to them. Why would I want someone else's imitation of it? "If you can see he…

There are absolutely some people who avoid Macbooks not because of the hardware part so much as the MacOS part.

I'm a huge long time Linux guy, it's been my ride or die since the mid '90s. But when the M1 came out I got one to replace my "couch" chromebook (which was EOL), partly because I was dead tired of trying to get Divinci Resolve working on Linux. I dedicated days trying to get it to work, with nearly 30 years of full time Linux SysAdmin experience under my belt.

I've run primarily Thinkpads before that MacBook. The Mac hardware has been top notch for me, the Thinkpad is superior in repairability and upgradability, but the Mac I haven't had to do any repairs on. I don't baby it, but I also don't abuse it. There are infuriating things about MacOS, for sure.

Re: Framework Laptop 13 Pro: Major Upgrades and Linux Front and Center

#86

Post by dijit »

kristopolous wrote: post #78
dijit wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? If for software: thats the point. If for hardware (because its not serviceable): then thats what the framework is fixing. It is no secret that Apple hardware is superior right now. If you don’t like that as a fact then convince Dell/HP/Lenovo to do better. It is a valid north star for Framework in the current ecosystem to differentiate but chase the best in market. — Also, your comments are devoid of things that…

It's not that, it's the follower product insistence. I've got a strong universal distaste for it. Let's take an industry where there isn't any: showers. You go to a hotel or an Airbnb and you can't figure out how to turn on the shower. They're all so different This is actually great. People are being very innovative and creative. That's human flourishing and ingenuity. You go to the electronics store and all the lapt…

Sure, and those exist.

MNT Reform for example; https://mntre.com/

The laptops I mentioned are also very different from Macbooks, but they are increasingly poor quality.

I maintain that its a valid choice, maybe once they have a truly solid product they can be creative. But theres no point being “super creative” and having no product, especially not a product people dislike.

Re: Framework Laptop 13 Pro: Major Upgrades and Linux Front and Center

#87

Post by craftkiller »

999900000999 wrote: post #23
eikenberry wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apples to oranges. NO other OEM makes a modular laptop yet.

You can swap the screen on some ThinkPads. I hope framework lives up to its promise, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

> I hope framework lives up to its promise, but I don't see that happening any time soon.

That's already happened? I started with an 11th gen Intel tigerlake laptop with DDR4 memory and a glossy screen. I upgraded to the AMD 7040 with DDR5 memory when I destroyed my Intel board with a soldering iron, skipping the Intel 12th gen iteration in between and the AMD AI 300 generation after the 7040.

I upgraded my screen from the glossy to the matte screen, I skipped the 120hz rounded corner screen, and now I'm likely upgrading to the new screen released for the FW13 pro. I upgraded my wifi card to a card supporting wifi 7 and my SSD to a 2TB SSD.

I upgraded my hinges from the original 3.5kg to the 4.0kg hinges. I upgraded my top cover from the original to the CNC version.

So far all of these upgrades have been completely interchangeable. I could have done any combination of those upgrades (with the exception that the ram had to be upgraded at the same time as the motherboard because the ram slots are on the motherboard).

At this point, the only original parts remaining in my laptop are the battery, the bezel, and the metal clip that goes over the wifi card antenna connectors. My laptop is literally the ship of theseus, something that has not been possible in laptops before framework.

Based on these announcements, most of the new framework 13 pro upgrades are also completely interchangeable, the one exception being the bigger battery and the bottom cover need to be upgraded together but I could upgrade the input cover without upgrading the bottom cover and battery if I wanted.

Personally, I'm planning on taking my existing AMD 7040 board and dropping it into a completely new framework 13 pro chassis because I've already invested in 96GB of ram for this board. Since I'm going to get the whole pro chassis, I'll sadly have to replace my original 55Wh battery, but they can pry my bezel and metal wifi antenna clip from my cold dead hands!

Re: Framework Laptop 13 Pro: Major Upgrades and Linux Front and Center

#88

Post by Forgeties79 »

aquariusDue wrote: post #81
Forgeties79 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean yeah they’re right but it’s not like the difference is particularly staggering. And unfortunately having control and quality runs a premium these days. Plus depending on what you’re upgrading it could very well save you money in the long run, as the parts you can replace or upgrade yourself in an MBpro are few and far between. The few things you can replace often cost an arm and a leg and require way more tech…

I'm not hating on Framework and I'm genuinely rooting for them but the last part is a bit of a weird PRO to me. What else can it run besides Windows and insert-long-list-of-Linux-distros-here compared to your run of the mill laptop? Can it run OpenBSD, NetBSD or FreeBSD without issues? How about Haiku if we're feeling crazy? Something that I think is a better PRO (if we're talking operating systems) is that from what…

I do not have a framework so I have not looked at the entire list of what OS’s it can support as I’m only interested in pop and bazzite these days. It may very well support those you listed

Re: Framework Laptop 13 Pro: Major Upgrades and Linux Front and Center

#89

Post by h14h »

maxloh wrote: post #12

I like their openness on hardware design. They open sourced their design under CC-BY-4.0 (surprisingly no NC!) in hope that it could enable reuse [1]. However, the whole thing is overpriced. Quoting kingsleyopara's comment 4 days ago [2], ...matching specs it comes out as more expensive than the MBP - even worse when you factor in potential discounts/sales which framework doesn't offer. Framework 13 Pro: £2064 (Ultra…

What sells me on it is I get to take a spare Gen4 m.2 ssd out of my gaming PC I wasn't fully utilizing instead of paying for 1TB of storage.

Being able to drive the price down by re-using parts I already have is a pretty big selling point, IMO.

Also, I think Apple is benefitting from scale, since they're able to maintain the (usually too high) storage and memory prices they've had for years. At this moment in time, framework have the misfortune of being forced to pass inflated wholesale prices onto the consumer.

Make this comparison one calendar year ago and the F13 Pro could very easily beat the MBP on price spec-for-spec.

Re: Framework Laptop 13 Pro: Major Upgrades and Linux Front and Center

#90

Post by wiether »

pyreko wrote: post #40
craftkiller wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had the framework 13 since batch 5 of their original first model and that has never happened to me once. Are you sure you're pushing the expansion cards _all the way_ in? They should click and the little button between the cards should pop up slightly more when the cards are fully inserted. It is certainly possible to have the cards visually look inserted and work normally but haven't actually been pushed in far…

Yeah if anything I've always had the opposite problem with my FW13 (12th gen Intel era) - removing the expansion cards is a pain in the ass with how tight it is. Curious if it got looser over time. Regardless, glad to see they're just outright redesigned the expansion card mechanism, hopefully this stops issues on both ends of the spectrum.

> removing the expansion cards is a pain in the ass with how tight it is

Same experience here.

I've already ripped my thumb while trying to remove a card.

Now I use the back of iFixit's Jimmy to push them out.

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