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The Classic American Diner

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Re: The Classic American Diner

#61

Post by tomrod »

dylan604 wrote: post #44
hackingonempty wrote: post #22

One of my hobbies is looking up old prices in the BLS CPI calculator to see what they would cost today (March 2026 is the latest data.) The June 1940 photograph along Hwy 1 in Maryland had $0.05 hotdogs ($1.17) and $0.10 burgers ($2.34). The Feb 1959 photograph from the NYC diner advertises a $0.45 burger ($5.14) and probably a $0.75 steak sandwich ($8.57)

These prices adjusted for today's value seem off though. I'm guessing you'd be hard pressed to find a diner burger for $5.14 anywhere. No, fast food joints are not the same here and not part of this discussion. Where is the discrepancy? I've never really trusted these "adjusted for inflation" type numbers. I'm not an economist so I have no idea how they are calculated, but they've always just felt off to me. Usually,…

Basket goods, basically.

Price of good i x Quantity of good i. Quantity is fixed year to year. So a loaf of bread, a gallon of milk, a TV, etc.

Sum those up across a reasonably representative basket, then compare that sum to the same quantity and new prices in a future year.

sum(P_i_new year x Q_i) / sum(P_i base year x Q_i) - 1 --> change in CPI

Hamburgers might be more expensive, but TVs, toilet paper, and dog kibble might not be.

Re: The Classic American Diner

#62

Post by gwerbin »

dylan604 wrote: post #44
hackingonempty wrote: post #22

One of my hobbies is looking up old prices in the BLS CPI calculator to see what they would cost today (March 2026 is the latest data.) The June 1940 photograph along Hwy 1 in Maryland had $0.05 hotdogs ($1.17) and $0.10 burgers ($2.34). The Feb 1959 photograph from the NYC diner advertises a $0.45 burger ($5.14) and probably a $0.75 steak sandwich ($8.57)

These prices adjusted for today's value seem off though. I'm guessing you'd be hard pressed to find a diner burger for $5.14 anywhere. No, fast food joints are not the same here and not part of this discussion. Where is the discrepancy? I've never really trusted these "adjusted for inflation" type numbers. I'm not an economist so I have no idea how they are calculated, but they've always just felt off to me. Usually,…

That's the point. Burgers are more expensive (relative to "all" other goods) compared to back then.

Re: The Classic American Diner

#63

Post by HoldOnAMinute »

kshacker wrote: post #19
yumraj wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which one(s) in South Bay? any recommendations?

My favorite is Holders Country Inn. I used to go to the one in Cupertino before it burnt down. They moved, this was on Deanza long time back, and the one on Wolfe does not have the same old diner feeling, it is for the next gen :) Now I go to the one on Saratoga. And while I do not go as often to other places, I have been to and liked Hobees, then there is one Joe's near Half Moon Bay. We go there as a family when we…

I wouldn't call it a diner but if you like these other places you might like Los Gatos Cafe

Re: The Classic American Diner

#64

Post by HoldOnAMinute »

solomonb wrote: post #23

I love diners but they aren't affordable anymore! I want a cheap simple meal and bad coffee. The diners that seem to survive in this market end up up-scaling their menus. : (

I desperately miss the 90's and the middle class we used to have. I also miss basic cheap eats. If someone tried to make an authentic type of diner today, it would immediately become swamped with influencers.

How can I get away from all this? Is there a town somewhere where everyone is over 45 and there is no cell service and a full meal is $5?

Heck I would settle for a small NorCal town that doesn't have gangs or meth.

Re: The Classic American Diner

#66

Post by peterbecich »

tomrod wrote: post #61
dylan604 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These prices adjusted for today's value seem off though. I'm guessing you'd be hard pressed to find a diner burger for $5.14 anywhere. No, fast food joints are not the same here and not part of this discussion. Where is the discrepancy? I've never really trusted these "adjusted for inflation" type numbers. I'm not an economist so I have no idea how they are calculated, but they've always just felt off to me. Usually,…

Basket goods, basically. Price of good i x Quantity of good i. Quantity is fixed year to year. So a loaf of bread, a gallon of milk, a TV, etc. Sum those up across a reasonably representative basket, then compare that sum to the same quantity and new prices in a future year. sum(P_i_new year x Q_i) / sum(P_i base year x Q_i) - 1 --> change in CPI Hamburgers might be more expensive, but TVs, toilet paper, and dog kibb…

Agreed completely. Other examples: long-distance telephone minutes, shoes, clothing, air travel... probably all cheaper.

Re: The Classic American Diner

#67

Post by jldugger »

dylan604 wrote: post #44
hackingonempty wrote: post #22

One of my hobbies is looking up old prices in the BLS CPI calculator to see what they would cost today (March 2026 is the latest data.) The June 1940 photograph along Hwy 1 in Maryland had $0.05 hotdogs ($1.17) and $0.10 burgers ($2.34). The Feb 1959 photograph from the NYC diner advertises a $0.45 burger ($5.14) and probably a $0.75 steak sandwich ($8.57)

These prices adjusted for today's value seem off though. I'm guessing you'd be hard pressed to find a diner burger for $5.14 anywhere. No, fast food joints are not the same here and not part of this discussion. Where is the discrepancy? I've never really trusted these "adjusted for inflation" type numbers. I'm not an economist so I have no idea how they are calculated, but they've always just felt off to me. Usually,…

Well, the $5.14 figure is using the generalized inflation number derived by tracking the price of a specific basket of goods over time, across the entire country. This is a reasonable number to pick.

If you narrow down to Food for all Urban Consumers[1], it shifts to more like $5.24. If you look at "Food away from home in New York-Newark-Jersey City, NY-NJ-PA, urban wage earners and clerical workers, not seasonally adjusted" that number moves to $7.60. Which confirms your intuition: restaurant prices are way higher than the overall inflation rate predicts.

How do we explain the difference? A variety of ways. Maybe the burgers you get are "better" in some way. Bigger. Better cut of meat. More veggies and toppings. I wasn't around in 1959 and never ate at that specific diner, but it's a real possibility. In fact, this is explicitly called out in the FAQ[3]:

> Specifically, in constructing the "headline" CPI-U and CPI-W, the BLS is not assuming that consumers substitute hamburgers for steak. Substitution is only assumed to occur within basic CPI index categories, such as among types of ground beef in Chicago. Hamburger and steak are in different CPI item categories, so no substitution between them is built into the CPI-U or CPI-W.

There's also some other complicating factors to account for, like coupons and bundling. Like consider Applebee's Really Big Meal Deal deal. "NEW Big Bangin’ Burger with unlimited fries & soda, still just $9.99" Or you can order just the burger for... $15.99[4]. I don't even know how BLS copes with that and am sorta guessing they just take the a la carte prices for consistency, even though that likely overstates price levels consumers actually pay?

[1]: https://data.bls.gov/dataViewer/view;jsessionid=3A241A4C4F0A... [2]: CWURS12ASEFV [3]: https://www.bls.gov/cpi/factsheets/common-misconceptions-abo... [4]: https://www.applebees.com/en/menu/handcrafted-burgers/big-ba...

Re: The Classic American Diner

#68

Post by JumpCrisscross »

dylan604 wrote: post #51
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Simple inflation adjustment gives us x but the real price is more or less than x. Why is that? Restaurant economics are a function of ingredient costs and labour. I suspect ingredient costs are close to OP's estimated multiples. But real wages are way up since the 1950s. Anything with a large labour component of costs will have tended to rise faster than inflation, which is an average of goods and services. (There…

Are you saying the prices listed were just for the ingredients and not the actual cost to the person ordering? They mentioned they saw the price in a photo which suggest it is what the person would be charged. I get that labor costs would cause an increase of raw ingredient price comparisons for total prices. But if you could pay buy a burger for a nickel but now need $10, there is a definite issue in just a "simple"…

> Are you saying the prices listed were just for the ingredients and not the actual cost to the person ordering?

Sorry, no. I'm saying labour is probably a larger fraction of the burger's costs today than it was in the 1950s. (I'd naively guess profits are, too.)

Re: The Classic American Diner

#69

Post by kshacker »

HoldOnAMinute wrote: post #63
kshacker wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My favorite is Holders Country Inn. I used to go to the one in Cupertino before it burnt down. They moved, this was on Deanza long time back, and the one on Wolfe does not have the same old diner feeling, it is for the next gen :) Now I go to the one on Saratoga. And while I do not go as often to other places, I have been to and liked Hobees, then there is one Joe's near Half Moon Bay. We go there as a family when we…

I wouldn't call it a diner but if you like these other places you might like Los Gatos Cafe

Lol thanks I will check it out, and I guess I was using the word diner way too loose - if it serves burgers, eggs and coffee, it hit my benchmark.

Re: The Classic American Diner

#70

Post by traderj0e »

yumraj wrote: post #8
kshacker wrote: post #7

Don't know about "classic". But diners used to be my weekly jaunt here in South Bay for almost a decade. Not any more because with age you realize the quantity is too much and my drive to work changed (WFH). There's something special about going to your regular place, seeing the same servers, and them knowing your order before you say it. Probably the same in dinner restaurants but we don't repeat restaurants as ofte…

which one(s) in South Bay? any recommendations?

I used to love Alice's Restaurant in 2014-2019, but moved away, so idk what it's like today.
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