Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

arstechnica.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 170 posts

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#81

Post by haberman »

xenophanes wrote: post #47
haberman wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm an American who is split on this issue (I find fault on both sides). None of the things you mentioned were ever uncertain to me. If Israel is looking for more support from people like me, the question I'd like to see them answer is: how do they justify the West Bank settlements? I can't even begin to understand how Israel can claim to want peace with Palestinians while unilaterally moving into the land where 2/3…

The justification for settlements is as follows: buying land, and living there, is legal. Describing this process is "unilaterally moving into land where 2/3 of them live" is false. A way to stop being split on the issue is to stop believing false factual claims. Palestine will have moderate leadership sometime after the majority of Palestinians are decent people who will vote for decent leaders. Blaming Israel for t…

I find your argument unconvincing, but reading more about it did lead me to this page, so at least I can now say I understand Israel's official position on the matter: http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace+Process/Guide+to+the+Peace+P...

Paraphrased, their position is: we won the 1967 war, and because there was no formal country in the West Bank prior to that, we can keep the land that we won in that war legally. Since we own it, we see no reason to keep Israelis from moving there if they want to.

It still seems hard to justify, saying on one hand that the "right of return" would threaten Israel's identity as a Jewish state (I agree; this is an unrealistic demand), but simultaneously arguing that Israelis are free to continue moving to the West Bank if they so choose, as if that doesn't threaten the identity of a future Palestinian state.

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#82

Post by chemcoder »

I think israel war tactics are better. They are creating phobia amongst all the Hamas leaders and members. They are deliberately showing their superior discipline and power and challenging the indisciplined hamas members.

Good thing is they killed a well known military leader and a terrorist . Just to send a message , I mean striking terror in the heart of enemy is the single most accurate technique that has worked since the origin of war. I think those who volunteer for Hamas now will think twice about it.

Frankly enforcing religion in military used to work when people fought with knives and swords . Here most wars are won with discipline and intelligence . No religion led military will ever win , they are just a bunch of monkeys jumping here and there and are too emotional to think with their heads .

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#83

Post by babesh »

blvr wrote: post #63
skrebbel wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. In fact, I may very well not know the most basic things about this country. But then how do you explain the colonization programme? The only explanation I've been able to figure out is some zionist idea of a right to a patch of land; some race-based sense of superiority. Why else bulldozer villages far across the border that was last determined in a treaty? These are horrible crimes, committed willingly b…

Wow. No. You've got it completely wrong. Zionism is the idea that Jews need a Jewish nation to take Jewish refugees fleeing persecution. History has basically proved that to be true. What it's not: 1. The idea that Jews are in any way superior. All races have equal rights under Israeli law (although secular Jews have some obligations that other groups don't, i.e. mandatory military service) and Israel has a significa…

It is not true that all races have equal rights under Israeli law. Try immigrating to Israel if you are not Jewish.

The message is clear and simple: Don't mess with us, we will fk you over. Whether it is nice or not is a different matter.

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#84

Post by guelo »

blvr wrote: post #63
skrebbel wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. In fact, I may very well not know the most basic things about this country. But then how do you explain the colonization programme? The only explanation I've been able to figure out is some zionist idea of a right to a patch of land; some race-based sense of superiority. Why else bulldozer villages far across the border that was last determined in a treaty? These are horrible crimes, committed willingly b…

Wow. No. You've got it completely wrong. Zionism is the idea that Jews need a Jewish nation to take Jewish refugees fleeing persecution. History has basically proved that to be true. What it's not: 1. The idea that Jews are in any way superior. All races have equal rights under Israeli law (although secular Jews have some obligations that other groups don't, i.e. mandatory military service) and Israel has a significa…

Yea right. Are you saying that Zionists locating Israel in Palestine has nothing to do with their 3,000 year old holy book?

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#85

Post by [deleted] »

kamaal wrote: post #78
blvr wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. No. You've got it completely wrong. Zionism is the idea that Jews need a Jewish nation to take Jewish refugees fleeing persecution. History has basically proved that to be true. What it's not: 1. The idea that Jews are in any way superior. All races have equal rights under Israeli law (although secular Jews have some obligations that other groups don't, i.e. mandatory military service) and Israel has a significa…

>>Zionism is the idea that Jews need a Jewish nation to take Jewish refugees fleeing persecution. Makes perfect sense. If you settle a persecuted set of people on a totally unoccupied land, which would be totally harmless. What I don't understand is the need to persecute one already existing set of people to accommodate another set of people who just got persecuted. If a persecuted tribe in Africa decides to settle d…

[deleted]

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#86

Post by blvr »

babesh wrote: post #83
blvr wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. No. You've got it completely wrong. Zionism is the idea that Jews need a Jewish nation to take Jewish refugees fleeing persecution. History has basically proved that to be true. What it's not: 1. The idea that Jews are in any way superior. All races have equal rights under Israeli law (although secular Jews have some obligations that other groups don't, i.e. mandatory military service) and Israel has a significa…

It is not true that all races have equal rights under Israeli law. Try immigrating to Israel if you are not Jewish. The message is clear and simple: Don't mess with us, we will f k you over. Whether it is nice or not is a different matter.

Well yeah, that's true. Jews have a right to immigrate to Israel that other peoples don't.

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#87

Post by brigade »

sk5t wrote: post #13
GuiA wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US as a whole tends to be very pro-Israel.

I doubt that a majority of the American people support Israel the way that a majority of American politicians apparently do. My perception is that Zionists are a very powerful special interest group.

The Christian right, which although maybe isn't a majority of Americans is a significant fraction, unconditionally supports Israel for a number of reasons, from Israel being necessary for the Rapture to it being better than its neighbors, to simply being anti-Muslim.

See http://www.patrobertson.com/Speeches/IsraelLauder.asp for their own words, and http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/north7.html for an non-evangelical viewpoint.

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#88

Post by philwelch »

skrebbel wrote: post #72
philwelch wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see how all of that has anything to do with Israel being a Jewish state, except of course that declaring a single-religion state, in general, is asking for trouble. Israel isn't a state for Judaism, it's simply a state for Jewish people. The set of Jewish people is not equal to the set of people who practice Judaism.

Right, good point. I see I've been mixing those up. So it's a single-race state? Or not that, either? (not intended in any offensive way - I'm just trying to understand what you're saying)

Ethnicity would be a better word than race, I suppose. Or nationality.

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#89

Post by blvr »

kamaal wrote: post #78
blvr wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow. No. You've got it completely wrong. Zionism is the idea that Jews need a Jewish nation to take Jewish refugees fleeing persecution. History has basically proved that to be true. What it's not: 1. The idea that Jews are in any way superior. All races have equal rights under Israeli law (although secular Jews have some obligations that other groups don't, i.e. mandatory military service) and Israel has a significa…

>>Zionism is the idea that Jews need a Jewish nation to take Jewish refugees fleeing persecution. Makes perfect sense. If you settle a persecuted set of people on a totally unoccupied land, which would be totally harmless. What I don't understand is the need to persecute one already existing set of people to accommodate another set of people who just got persecuted. If a persecuted tribe in Africa decides to settle d…

>>If a persecuted tribe in Africa decides to settle down in Antarctica people wouldn't have a problem. But will it be OK, if they invade California drive out the existing set of people there and settle down.

If you think that's analogous to what happened in Palestine you need a history lesson.

Re: Israel live-tweets assault on Gaza

#90

Post by YZF »

cup wrote: post #43
pinaceae wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

does Hamas recognize the right of Israel to exist? this is war.

No, this is occupation and apartheid.

Since this is HN let met just say that I hope you don't apply the same sort of oversimplification to the code you write. Technically Gaza may have been under Egyptian control historically but Egypt doesn't want it back. Israel has no presence in Gaza. So there's no occupation in Gaza and no apartheid in Gaza any more than there is South Korean occupation and apartheid in North Korea. That doesn't mean everything is right in that region but unfortunately there are no simple solutions that satisfy the wishes of both sides.
Post reply on HN