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Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

nationsreportcard.gov

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Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#111

Post by empath75 »

japhyr wrote: post #22

People are talking about Covid, smartphones/screens, social media, and AI. No one has mentioned defunding public education yet. In Alaska, where I lived most of the last 20 years, education has been largely flat funded for about a decade now. Imagine running an organization in 2026 on that organization's 2016 budget. Schools have a bunch of obligations they have to spend on. Every time health care costs for staff go…

My wife is on a school board in a large district that is trying to cut spending. The problem is not really how much money they have and giving them more money doesn't help. The problem at least in our state is:

Public schools are subsidizing charter schools

Public schools have many legal requirements to provide services that charter schools don't have to deal with. Charter schools also have a lot of freedom to refuse problematic kids, that public schools have to take.

Parents who don't need those services keep taking their kids out of public schools and putting them into charter schools, charter schools kick out problem kids. Public schools end up having a higher cost per student because of that.

Schools have to finance an entire security apparatus because assholes keep doing mass shootings.

Public school systems _also_ are terrible at spending money on bullshit that has absolutely nothing to do with schools. The amount of money spent on administration is way way out of line. There are so many layers between the top and teachers and so many people with their hands out. Big school systems could probably fire half of their administration and literally nobody would notice. They would probably run better. When they do internal reports on how to save money, it always comes back to the most trivial shit or even worse, pulling it out of _education_ and is _never_ 'you need to fire a bunch of people collecting a paycheck for doing nothing'.

I genuinely think most big school systems would be vastly improved by firing half of the administration at random and doubling teacher salaries.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#112

Post by nradov »

pavon wrote: post #52
godelski wrote: post #7

The peak was in 2012 2012 2020 2023 Reading 263 260 256 Math 285 280 271 So people are looking at Covid and that's probably not enough. The scores are closer to those of the 80's than those in the 90's and 00's

We don't have any NAEP long-term test results for years between 2012 and 2020, because they were canceled due to budget cuts[1], so we can't use the linked data to determine whether the decline started before or during COVID. We do have the NAEP main series test results[2]. At a first glance at the math results[3][4], it appears they peaked in 2013, then fluctuated through 2019, then dropped significantly in 2022 and…

Could we look at average SAT scores by year as a proxy? It's not a great metric because not all students take the SAT but I think there's some correlation.

https://blog.prepscholar.com/average-sat-scores-over-time

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#113

Post by lamasery »

zozbot234 wrote: post #105
troosevelt wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in my state teachers in good districts start at $60,000 per year and see minimal increases due to length of service; after 20 years they might be making $75,000 per year. You ever done the math on living on $60k per year? Hard to do a lot besides support youself on that income. I note that surrounding states (even higher cost states) have lower salaries. Teachers get paid peanuts.

That's not so low when you account for the fact that school is not in session during summer, and teachers get these months off.

In states with lower teacher pay, most teachers without a much-higher-paid spouse take summer jobs or teach summer school. Also, none of them get as much time off in the summer as the kids do. Plus, you can't pay your mortgage with vacation days.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#114

Post by insane_dreamer »

As a parent of 2 older kids (post college) and 2 young ones (primary/middle) I think one big problem is the academic expectations for the kids have dropped, and unless they are highly motivated they won’t rise above classroom expectations (even if the parents are pushing them at home). The second problem is what happens outside school: non-stop distractions: phones, iPads, social media, it’s always there. Yes we try to restrict it but it’s like forcing your kids to use a horse and buggy while all their friends are driving cars ; maybe we need to convert to Amish. It’s maddening, really.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#115

Post by troosevelt »

zozbot234 wrote: post #105
troosevelt wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here in my state teachers in good districts start at $60,000 per year and see minimal increases due to length of service; after 20 years they might be making $75,000 per year. You ever done the math on living on $60k per year? Hard to do a lot besides support youself on that income. I note that surrounding states (even higher cost states) have lower salaries. Teachers get paid peanuts.

That's not so low when you account for the fact that school is not in session during summer, and teachers get these months off.

Teachers often end up working weeks that are more than 40 hours, though with grading, lesson planning, tutoring, etc.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#116

Post by wat10000 »

havaloc wrote: post #86

Much ink has been spilled in the comments already, but as a child of the 80s, computers were a class, and not a lifestyle. If I had gone through school with what's available today, I doubt I would have done as well as I did. Most things were handwritten, I learned cursive, and computer class was Oregon Trail and basic programming essentially. Looking back, I don't think Chromebooks, iPads and the like would have been…

It's amazing how bad these things can be. My kids will sometimes get computerized homework which gets graded automatically, and if you don't format the answer the way it likes, zero points. They spend as much effort fighting with the formatting as they do understanding the material. And this is in one of the wealthiest, best run public school districts in the country.

"Technology" has been an education buzzword since I was in school and it needs to be taken out and shot.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#117

Post by boelboel »

weberer wrote: post #37
japhyr wrote: post #22

People are talking about Covid, smartphones/screens, social media, and AI. No one has mentioned defunding public education yet. In Alaska, where I lived most of the last 20 years, education has been largely flat funded for about a decade now. Imagine running an organization in 2026 on that organization's 2016 budget. Schools have a bunch of obligations they have to spend on. Every time health care costs for staff go…

>Averaged across the general student population, there was no statistically significant correlation between a school’s spending levels and its students’ academic performance in 27 of the 28 academic indicators used in the model. In the only category that did show a statistically significant correlation — seventh-grade math — the impact of spending more was very small. https://www.mackinac.org/S2016-02#results

This analysis is rather weak, just a linear regression with 2 variables it seems. I'm not saying there's a direct link of school spending and academic performance but this is barely trying. Your average undergrad could've made a better study.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#118

Post by nradov »

peyton wrote: post #15
SirFatty wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know the talking heads have been saying that as well, but my bet is on social media and phone use being the majority stakeholder in this failure.

Chronic absence is up and truancy is down according to this report. Not really what I’d expect for phone use—both should trend flat or up. I wonder if there’s a way to validate the hypothesis that post-shutdown, some of the cohort that would have missed a day here and there now see school as optional and miss more days. Overall, the reported effect is sad and should be addressed. These are people’s lives.

Youth participation in travel club sports is up so they miss more school days due to tournaments. These tend to be the more affluent and motivated students who still achieve good grades and high standardized test scores. I receive warning letters from the school district every year over high absences but it doesn't mean anything and I just throw them in the trash.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#119

Post by nitwit005 »

JuniperMesos wrote: post #76
shigawire wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They want to say that non-whites are naturally dumber than whites. There will be varying degrees of subtlety but that's what the dog whistlers are on about.

You can take a look at the charts in the linked article and see that the scores for Asians are consistently higher than the scores for whites which are consistently higher than the scores for blacks and Hispanics. This was true in 2012 and it's true today. If these numbers are at all meaningful for determining how much a student has learned as a result of going through schooling, then thye show that white people are…

Depending on what variety of racist you get, they'll either just ignore that sort of data, or they openly state they prefer Asian immigrants.

Re: Scores decline again for 13-year-old students in reading and mathematics (2023)

#120

Post by pavon »

NickNaraghi wrote: post #29

Note that these are 2023 numbers, not 2025.

The NAEP has two types of tests - a long-term trend assessment, and the main assessment[1]. The long-term trend is given less often (and rather sporadically recently), and 2023 is the most recent one available.

The main assessment has been performed every two years recently, so 2024 data is most recent. They can all be seen here[2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Assessment_of_Educati...

[2] https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/report_archive.aspx

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