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In the UK, EVs are cheaper than petrol cars, thanks to Chinese competition

electrek.co

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Re: In the UK, EVs are cheaper than petrol cars, thanks to Chinese competition

#151

Post by ggm »

century19 wrote: post #143
ggm wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vehicles incur costs on the infrastructure as a function of their weight and usage. Petrol engines pay taxes at the pump. There is no tax hypothication in this, it goes to general revenue, but as EV rise, general tax revenue falls. The government has an obligation of sorts, to try and normalise tax collection to the model, and the model is now breaking so they need to implement something, doing nothing is not an opti…

Vehicles have road taxes. It’s a very clumbsy and annoying way the UK have planned this new tax. I hope other countries do not copy it.

A similar debate is happening in Australia, with the added complexities of federal vs state taxation models, and a nationally collected GST tax (VAT like) which is distributed to the states. Petrol (gas) taxation to consumers is a confusing topic with many people believing in lots of economies its a hypothicated tax, dedicated to roads and related costs. Well, it's not. It's not defined in legislation in the two economies I know of, which do this stuff. It may or may not meet road costs, or exceed road costs, or be less than road costs. In australia the only hypothicated tax, and there are disagreements about if it meets the bar or not, is the medicare levy. Everything else is consolidated revenue, no matter what you think they do with it.

Re: In the UK, EVs are cheaper than petrol cars, thanks to Chinese competition

#152

Post by dalyons »

hunterpayne wrote: post #63
sega_sai wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that there is not enough infrastructure for EVs. If you can't charge at home (e.g. you live in a flat), it is hard to live with an EV and it's much more expensive than the ICE.

The problem isn't infrastructure. Its the amount of Li in reserve.

that is absolutely not the problem. We have more than enough li, subject to cost of extraction. New chemistries dont even need it. you need to update your talking points.

Re: In the UK, EVs are cheaper than petrol cars, thanks to Chinese competition

#154

Post by Symbiote »

Jblx2 wrote: post #79
rebolek wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Death spiral to gas stations? why? EV cars need to charge somewhere (and on long trip it can’t be at home) and people need to take a break and grab a coffee sometime too. They will change, sure, but certainly not die. Refineries will be fewer but we do need another products from them also.

I'm using the definitions: - Gas Station = retail outlet that sells and dispenses gasoline and other petroleum-based fuel products - Charging station = place to charge your EV Could be an interesting long bet. Will the number of retail locations selling gasoline in the UK in the year 2045 be higher or lower than in 2026?

In 2045 petrol stations will be well on the way the being about as rare as places selling paraffin or special racing car fuel today.

I don't see how this is an interesting bet. No new petrol car will have been sold for 10 years. Places selling fuel for large lorries etc will last a bit longer, but these are already a fraction of the total.

Re: In the UK, EVs are cheaper than petrol cars, thanks to Chinese competition

#155

Post by dalyons »

rootusrootus wrote: post #106
tshaddox wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From what I've seen, I have no reason to expect that a cheap new Chinese EV sold in the U.S. would be meaningfully lower quality than a cheap new American car.

Conversely, I have no reason to expect that a new Chinese EV sold in the US would be meaningfully cheaper than a new American car. At least not to the extent that China fans are dreaming about. That just is not how markets work.

only one way to find out!

Re: In the UK, EVs are cheaper than petrol cars, thanks to Chinese competition

#156

Post by dalyons »

hunterpayne wrote: post #64
testing22321 wrote: post #24

Meanwhile Ford’s CEO said that if Chinese EVs are allowed into USA it will destroy the US automakers. He is not even hiding the fact US automakers make a more expensive inferior product, but that US consumers should not be allowed have the superior one.

No, its because the Chinese subsidize the costs of those cars. Say I live in a country that will pay me $50k to build a car. It costs me say, $55K to build the car which I now sell for $60K. How you do you, in a country that pays you nothing to build cars, compete? This is an extreme example but its what is happening here (just will different and smaller numbers).

you need to update your talking points. China no longer subsidizes their cars produced today to any meaningful level.

Re: In the UK, EVs are cheaper than petrol cars, thanks to Chinese competition

#157

Post by mchusma »

century19 wrote: post #144
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ford’s CEO said that if Chinese EVs are allowed into USA it will destroy the US automakers I'm a strong advocate for giving Chinese EVs an import quota per manufacturer (with a 1.5mm-unit annual cap on total Chinese EV imports, downgradable to 1mm in a recession, representing about 10% of demand). This gives American consumers–and designers–access to and a taste for what the competition is doing. But it preserves a…

So no free market. Consumers have to subsidise crap companies.

Closer to free than now…so I support. I would prefer us automakers to start competing, but at this point I’ve given up on Them.

Re: In the UK, EVs are cheaper than petrol cars, thanks to Chinese competition

#158

Post by storus »

ggm wrote: post #148
storus wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other words, EVs are used in a bait-and-switch scheme. First promising lower operating costs and negative externalities, then moving to new taxes possibly progressively increasing over time past the ICE taxation, and mandatory built-in surveillance and remote control.

Thats a very specific take on things. Nobody promised negative externalities as I understand it, I believe it was pretty clear the component of government taxation in fuel was going to have to exist somehow in this. Your "possibly increasing over time past the ICE indexation" is very cynical but I would be in the worlds of ad hom if I carried on. I don't think you are here argung in good faith, if thats your basis of…

"promising lower ... negative externalities..."

I drop my HN accounts when they reach certain karma threshold so that I am not surfing on my past successes but keep relevant in the present. I think you have the collector approach instead and use it as a weapon.

Re: In the UK, EVs are cheaper than petrol cars, thanks to Chinese competition

#159

Post by moepstar »

nicoburns wrote: post #134
znkynz wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that would depend on the infrastucture cost to install such charging and to maintain it? This is kerbside slow charging presumably overnight. Note that spaces in these residental areas are typically not even marked spaces; the worst outcome might be losing more footpath space to charging infra for road users.

Non-fast chargers aren't very big. They can be installed in lampposts, or in lampost-diameter boxes sunk into the pavement (with the socket sticking out at the top)

Lampposts or even curbstone: https://www.rheinmetall.com/en/products/charging-infrastruct...

Re: In the UK, EVs are cheaper than petrol cars, thanks to Chinese competition

#160

Post by moepstar »

Detrytus wrote: post #120
DangitBobby wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fuel taxes don't seem to take into account the quartic scaling of damage by vehicle weight on pavement.

Well, if they did then EVs would pay more, since they are much heavier., because of, you know, the batteries.

Bollocks - all generalizations are false.

My Model 3 (RWD SR+ 2023) is 1847kg unloaded weight, including driver.

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