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EV sales soar in main European markets as drivers shun expensive petrol

reuters.com

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Re: EV sales soar in main European markets as drivers shun expensive petrol

#61

Post by vel0city »

measurablefunc wrote: post #60
vel0city wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the goalposts go flying! You know what's a shortfall today around the world? Gasoline.

Peak oil production was in 1970 so I don't know what to tell you other than it's basic physics. You should look into something called EROEI (energy return on energy invested). You might find it useful for your next argument about the viability of EVs.

I don't know what to tell you. ICE cars are doomed, it's basic physics. They depend on something that is a finite resource that you agree peaked a long while ago. They're well along their way to complete failure. And yet while we'll still have the copper to recycle into new motors we won't have more oil. But here you are telling me we're going to run out of copper despite lots of sources telling you that's absolutely nonsense, but you'll believe it because some guy in a YouTube video told you "that's just basic physics, there's only so much copper, gotcha!"

> You should look into something called EROEI (energy return on energy invested).

I'm very familiar with it. As easy supplies of oil are getting used up the EROEI of oil is falling. It takes a lot of energy to transport and refine all those tar sands after all. It takes a lot of energy to cryogenically transport LNG around the world. And once you burn it, you need yet another shipment of it around the world. Meanwhile the EROEI of modern renewables is often even exceeding natural gas plants. I don't know what to tell you other than it's basic physics.

You might find actually reading sources other than the oil and gas industry lobbyists enlightening on the topic. Quit asking the Altria group if you should quit that smoking habit and go talk to an actual doctor. And before you brush that off, it's exactly what you're doing. You're asking an oil industry insider if you should bother looking into buying less oil. Of course he's going to tell you nothing else makes sense, keep buying oil.

You should look at actual facts with real figures for your next argument about EVs instead of claiming there's not enough copper. I'm sorry you've swallowed so many obvious lies by these guys.

Re: EV sales soar in main European markets as drivers shun expensive petrol

#62

Post by measurablefunc »

vel0city wrote: post #61
measurablefunc wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Peak oil production was in 1970 so I don't know what to tell you other than it's basic physics. You should look into something called EROEI (energy return on energy invested). You might find it useful for your next argument about the viability of EVs.

I don't know what to tell you. ICE cars are doomed, it's basic physics. They depend on something that is a finite resource that you agree peaked a long while ago. They're well along their way to complete failure. And yet while we'll still have the copper to recycle into new motors we won't have more oil. But here you are telling me we're going to run out of copper despite lots of sources telling you that's absolutely…

In any event, this discussion has run its course so good luck in your EV evangelism efforts.

Re: EV sales soar in main European markets as drivers shun expensive petrol

#63

Post by jesterson »

codeduck wrote: post #28
jesterson wrote: post #6

I wonder what way of thinking these people exercise. They think electricity prices are somehow shielded from price going up?

It's not about price; it's hedging against the very real risk of petrol rationing and shortages. An EV can charge from any source, and in Europe a lot of power is sourced from non-oil sources

If that's the case, probability of rationing/shortages for electricity may be even higher, unless you have your own generation.

There are several oil companies/sources, but for electricity you are at mercy of those who control grid. Again, unless you have your own generation.

Re: EV sales soar in main European markets as drivers shun expensive petrol

#64

Post by melling »

a_shovel wrote: post #49
melling wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re part of the problem, not the solution. There’s an entire political backlash against EVs because of mandates. The Trump Administration actually prevented California from having EV quotas. Simply let in EVs from China and let American car companies go out of business.

There's a political backlash against vaccines because of mandates too, and I think we shouldn't listen to them either.

No, there really isn’t.

Re: EV sales soar in main European markets as drivers shun expensive petrol

#65

Post by ZeroGravitas »

melling wrote: post #59
SapporoChris wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sad to say, the best does not always win. There are countless examples in technology, products, politics, etc etc.

Fortunately EVs are also cheaper. Unfortunately, the US has a 100% tariff on the less expensive Chinese EVs and batteries. Better and cheaper does win.

EVs became cheaper because of a variety of mandates from Governments in California and China, amongst other places.

Re: EV sales soar in main European markets as drivers shun expensive petrol

#66

Post by vel0city »

measurablefunc wrote: post #62
vel0city wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what to tell you. ICE cars are doomed, it's basic physics. They depend on something that is a finite resource that you agree peaked a long while ago. They're well along their way to complete failure. And yet while we'll still have the copper to recycle into new motors we won't have more oil. But here you are telling me we're going to run out of copper despite lots of sources telling you that's absolutely…

In any event, this discussion has run its course so good luck in your EV evangelism efforts.

That's right, once you've realized an EV charged from solar power will have a higher EROEI than a gas car fueled from oil sands and corn juice "the discussion has run its course", and that gasoline has a finite time of economic usefulness rapidly approaching "this discussion has run its course".

I dunno what to tell you, it's just basic physics. Unless you're paid millions from the oil industry, in which case it's suddenly very complicated.

Re: EV sales soar in main European markets as drivers shun expensive petrol

#67

Post by ben_w »

melling wrote: post #56
smithoc wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a political backlash because Fox News and some Russian propaganda social media accounts told people to get angry and they did. We have mandates against leaded fuel and excessively tinted windows and for child seats. We have mandates for airbags and seatbelts and bumper heights and crumple zones and turn signals. EVs are better than gas cars in every way - less noise, less pollution, less dependency buying oil…

If they’re better, you don’t need mandates.

If this statement was generically true, nobody would smoke, nobody would play lotteries*, we'd all eat plenty of fruit and vegetables, everyone who was able to would exercise.

And some of the issues for EVs, like availability of chargers, go away by automatic action of the market when there's a good reason (e.g. government mandate for more EVs) to expect more demand for EVs.

* except on the occasions where the rollover boosted the expected value above the ticket price, but this would never happen if nobody ever played lotteries.

Re: EV sales soar in main European markets as drivers shun expensive petrol

#68

Post by ben_w »

ManuelKiessling wrote: post #46
bamboozled wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s the stress around it, not the current price. That’s what people are replacing. If I’m trying to plan for the future in a world where conflicts this destructive are permanently on the menu, I’m not going to ever buy an ICE car again. No one wants to be at the mercy of anyone else where possible and as someone who only owns ICE cars, it’s been very stressful few weeks.

I think you are on to something here. But it would mean that sentiment could change on a whim: a serious blackout somewhere in Europe that makes continent-wide headlines, and EV demand might crash.

Could be, but depends on the behaviour of PV.

Given the lack of blackouts around here, I've not bothered to investigate if home PV systems can still charge batteries, or if the inverter dependence on the grid for phase-locking the AC prevents that.

There's already been news stories about people powering their homes from their EV during blackouts, the oldest example I know of this from 2012 albeit with a hybrid and it was burning petrol: https://cleantechnica.com/2012/11/10/man-lights-house-with-t...

More recently, this: https://electrek.co/2026/03/13/yes-an-ev-really-can-power-yo...

Re: EV sales soar in main European markets as drivers shun expensive petrol

#69

Post by ben_w »

jesterson wrote: post #63
codeduck wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about price; it's hedging against the very real risk of petrol rationing and shortages. An EV can charge from any source, and in Europe a lot of power is sourced from non-oil sources

If that's the case, probability of rationing/shortages for electricity may be even higher, unless you have your own generation. There are several oil companies/sources, but for electricity you are at mercy of those who control grid. Again, unless you have your own generation.

> Again, unless you have your own generation.

Which is cheap compared to even cheap Chinese cars before the tariffs are added: https://www.kaufland.de/product/512021383/?search_value=pv+c...

Re: EV sales soar in main European markets as drivers shun expensive petrol

#70

Post by fhdkweig »

ben_w wrote: post #68
ManuelKiessling wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are on to something here. But it would mean that sentiment could change on a whim: a serious blackout somewhere in Europe that makes continent-wide headlines, and EV demand might crash.

Could be, but depends on the behaviour of PV. Given the lack of blackouts around here, I've not bothered to investigate if home PV systems can still charge batteries, or if the inverter dependence on the grid for phase-locking the AC prevents that. There's already been news stories about people powering their homes from their EV during blackouts, the oldest example I know of this from 2012 albeit with a hybrid and it…

> Given the lack of blackouts around here, I've not bothered to investigate if home PV systems can still charge batteries, or if the inverter dependence on the grid for phase-locking the AC prevents that.

The technology is called "islanding mode". It adds a little extra cost to the inverters, and you have to specifically request it, but the tech exists.

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