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Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

ashley.rolfmore.com

171–180 of 305 posts

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#171
post #127

I tend to be very exacting in my word choice. If I used a specific word, I meant it. Many people I find speak in what I would describe as tone poems. They circle around an idea using whatever word is within reach, and expect you to understand the meaning based on shared connotations. These people are tiring to interpret. When I write something, each and every word was chosen specifically and with intention. The numbe…

> If the job market were not what it is I would have quit there and then.

> I feel like people using AI to both read and interpret language is the death of rigorous language.

Thank you for your perspective. It is very validating (and in this case, still extremely disappointing) when strangers come to the same conclusions as yourself.

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#173

Even here in the comments you see people who have read this article and fall victim to the very things it’s pointing out. It’s ironic. Let me add a couple to this list. 1. No amount of knowledge or discussion will make a person accept something they don’t want to accept. 2. To truly listen means to place yourself mentally and physically in a vulnerable state. Because you will likely hear things that run contrary to y…

> No amount of knowledge or discussion will make a person accept something they don’t want to accept. Not sure it's ever good to assume this beforehand though. Most things are negotiable, if you know how to negotiate right.

I believe you’re right, it’s not great to assume this beforehand. Many things are negotiable, but there are a whole lot of things that aren’t.

When you’re faced with convincing someone of $TruthA or $FactA and one of those two collides with a persons worldview, makes them uncomfortable, or causes them pain. Sometimes that truth or fact will be thrown out because of its ramifications.

For example, if we’re in Iowa, and you prove to me that plastic straws don’t kill turtles.. but as a kid my first trip to the ocean resulted in seeing a dead turtle die to a straw. It’s going to be very difficult for me to believe otherwise.

My statement about a person not accepting something because they won’t want too… is less about them.. and more about the person trying to argue/explain/etc.

It’s important to identify when a topic won’t be accepted by an individual and to move on. It’s something I’ve struggled with in life. If you don’t identify it, you can risk overstaying your welcome. Which can lead to losing a trusted advisor status. It’s far better to keep the trusted advisor status and tackle the issue another time.

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#174
post #127

I tend to be very exacting in my word choice. If I used a specific word, I meant it. Many people I find speak in what I would describe as tone poems. They circle around an idea using whatever word is within reach, and expect you to understand the meaning based on shared connotations. These people are tiring to interpret. When I write something, each and every word was chosen specifically and with intention. The numbe…

> I tend to be very exacting in my word choice. If I used a specific word, I meant it. You aren't alone. My professional written communication is meticulous. I think carefully about my audience and optimize word choice for very low probability of accidental collision or misinterpretation. I don't think everyone should communicate this way all the time, but I do think everyone should recognize that loose communication…

[deleted]

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Perhaps you should ask the manager why he passed it through AI. Note that the manager may or may not have incentive at all to provide useful or even meaningful feedback. I mean, he did pass on an incorrect version of the documentation, didn't he? hi! yes. perhaps he wil write inchoate sentence like point out which word is wrong >One suspicion I have is that your one-pager was passed through AI because it was too ter…

On your last sentence: The very first sentences should clear warnings not to modify the document, and read it entirely. That the contents of the document are short ( And if that still doesnt work, arrange a 15min meeting with relevant stakeholders and go through the document quickly before releasing it. It is my view that we have always been an oral species, and the great tyranny of the written words always a great b…

>Writing has always been a great burden. It should not be elevated to, nor equivocated with, some great utility or intellectual practice. That was for an era where sound was harder to record and transmit than words; and where meetings required moving around the world.

Okay Socrates[1]. Obviously writing has not been a "great burden" because it's 5000 years later and we're still all doing it. It hasn't been enough of a burden for you to avoid this place after 14 years and 12331 karma.

The way you've carried yourself on this thread indicates to me that you either don't understand other people's relationship to writing and why it is better than speech for them, or you are simply unempathetic.

> Speaking to people in a meeting allows them to emote, express difficulty of understanding, understand the sentiment and priority of what they're hearing -- and most of all, it allows them to listen rather than read. People speak at a much lower information density, and this is a less taxing form of communication.

Unless you have an intellectual disability, you can pay enough attention to the written word to get what you need out of it. Speaking is just as much a skill as writing. Who hasn't been in a meeting where the speaker is so boring, dull, or just bad at communicating that we zone off, go to another tab, and end up missing details? At least with writing I can go back and see what I missed. I can check myself.

I have ADD and a speech impediment. It is harder for me to pay attention to someone speaking, especially if they are boring, than it is for me to pay attention to a document. If I skim a document and miss something, it's all still right there in front of me. I can buckle down and read the whole thing. I can't replay a conversation. And vice-versa. With writing, I can gather my thoughts, think through what I'm trying to say, and present everything at once as a complete package that can stand on its own. Who hasn't lost a train of thought... or forgotten the word for something... or has a foggy brain and can't seem to remember an important detail? With writing, all of those things happen in the process of creation and get pruned out and fixed in the process of publishing (I use this word loosely).

---

The other thing I really wanted to comment on is the wild idea that is somehow okay for your manager to take your work, pass it through an LLM, and then present it to others as if it was your work. Like, what?!?!

I don't know what model you're using but AI lies. It lies all the time. It has no understanding. OP shows that because the AI generated overview of his work was full of hallucinations. The fact his manager didn't come back to him and talk to him about his documentation and offer feedback is crazy. AI came and gave everyone a taste of a lighter workload and instantly adults with 20+ years of experience unloaded their minds and started acting like vessels.

If I was that manager, I would be deeply embarrassed and ashamed.

[1] https://fs.blog/an-old-argument-against-writing/

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming malign motivations, I'm assuming misplaced ones. It seems more likely to me the manager tried to read it and struggled, then generated something of equivalent size or larger. I'm taking it the generated document passed around was actually at least as large as the one-pager, and hence entirely pointless to rephrase even with the malign motivations you're assuming. Since the poster here wears his person…

> It seems more likely to me the manager tried to read it and struggled, then generated something of equivalent size or larger. Either way, it's poor management to interpose oneself between employees. As a manager you should be connecting groups of people to talk to each other directly, not injecting oneself as a go between. If they have issues understanding the material they're much better off asking the OP directly…

Well, OP can learn from the experience or turn it into a hill to die on. Learning doesn't imply you were ever wrong, only that something you did produced an unintended result -- people are themselves problems to navigate around, not people whose actions you have to read as judgements.

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#177
post #127

I tend to be very exacting in my word choice. If I used a specific word, I meant it. Many people I find speak in what I would describe as tone poems. They circle around an idea using whatever word is within reach, and expect you to understand the meaning based on shared connotations. These people are tiring to interpret. When I write something, each and every word was chosen specifically and with intention. The numbe…

I used to select my words very carefully and feel frustration when people misinterpreted them or did not understand the precise angle behind that choice. Reading other people's communication would often be confusing because they were not nearly as precise in their language. At some point I realized that if I didn't want to be permanently frustrated, I had to adapt to the broad reality of how humans communicate. I int…

> At some point I realized that if I didn't want to be permanently frustrated, I had to adapt to the broad reality of how humans communicate.

See you say that, yet I'm perpetually frustrated because so many humans communicate so fucking poorly, which AI is both making a bit better (no more word salad riddled with typos, ill-understood terms, what have you) but is also making worse (people now put even less effort into communication, which is genuinely an achievement).

I was told all through my school years that I would need to write well to be taken seriously in business, and my entire career has been rife with aging old fools overseeing me who could barely fucking type, let alone write.

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're assuming malign motivations, I'm assuming misplaced ones. It seems more likely to me the manager tried to read it and struggled, then generated something of equivalent size or larger. I'm taking it the generated document passed around was actually at least as large as the one-pager, and hence entirely pointless to rephrase even with the malign motivations you're assuming. Since the poster here wears his person…

> You're assuming malign motivations, I'm assuming misplaced ones. Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

Or, to put another way, “never attribute to malice what can be explained by ignorance”

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#179

Even here in the comments you see people who have read this article and fall victim to the very things it’s pointing out. It’s ironic. Let me add a couple to this list. 1. No amount of knowledge or discussion will make a person accept something they don’t want to accept. 2. To truly listen means to place yourself mentally and physically in a vulnerable state. Because you will likely hear things that run contrary to y…

> To truly listen means to place yourself mentally and physically in a vulnerable state if it's not two ways, stop trying, stand up and leave.

When I lost my faith I was frequently engaged in debate by my friends and family. I was eager and willing to try and argue for the logical and moral necessity of atheism. It was never productive.

Eventually, when someone would ask me to engage in debate I would start by saying, "Is there anything you can think of that I could say that would possible make you lose your faith or decide I was right?"

The answer to this question was always "no, it is impossible for me to lose my faith". My next question was always "then what would be the point of debating?"

This was also never productive. But it was efficient.

Re: Stop trying to engineer your way out of listening to people

#180
post #127

I tend to be very exacting in my word choice. If I used a specific word, I meant it. Many people I find speak in what I would describe as tone poems. They circle around an idea using whatever word is within reach, and expect you to understand the meaning based on shared connotations. These people are tiring to interpret. When I write something, each and every word was chosen specifically and with intention. The numbe…

I used to select my words very carefully and feel frustration when people misinterpreted them or did not understand the precise angle behind that choice. Reading other people's communication would often be confusing because they were not nearly as precise in their language. At some point I realized that if I didn't want to be permanently frustrated, I had to adapt to the broad reality of how humans communicate. I int…

I resonate strongly with this comment chain. At this stage in life I don’t think I’ve essentially figured out how to adapt and don’t see much point in getting diagnosed. But it is interesting seeing comments that feel like I could have written them myself.
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