141–150 of 305 posts
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The points in # 2 are profound. I plan on sending this to someone who is dear to me. Maybe he will "listen" to it, too. Thank you.
Let us know how that goes, telling someone who is defending themself from you how they should "Be More Vulnerable!"
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> They circle around an idea using whatever word is within reach, and expect you to understand the meaning based on shared connotations. These people are tiring to interpret. I find this notion a little strange. The implication here is that words are precisely bounded to bounds of thoughts. Language is a representation of our world (and our individual understanding of it) - we all (including you) will use different w…
>You can’t hand wave away the work of interpreting (aka listening) to someone. And yet, that's what their manager did. Not only that, they precluded interpretation for the other people, by running the documentation through the language mixer. And half the commenters are blaming GP for making the effort to do the right thing. "Power", "authority", literally refers to the ability to hand-wave interpretative labor uncon…
I tend to be very exacting in my word choice. If I used a specific word, I meant it. Many people I find speak in what I would describe as tone poems. They circle around an idea using whatever word is within reach, and expect you to understand the meaning based on shared connotations. These people are tiring to interpret. When I write something, each and every word was chosen specifically and with intention. The numbe…
I have extreme examples from friends, where somehow they “hear” the opposite of what I say because they are always looking for the indirect meaning, not what you are saying.
Fun example from a friend: his family were extremely direct but his girlfriend’s family was very indirect. As a young naive guy he was having dinner with his girlfriend’s family and her father asked: “is there any salt” and my friend looked up at the glass salt shaker and said “yes” and continued with his meal.
I tend to be very exacting in my word choice. If I used a specific word, I meant it. Many people I find speak in what I would describe as tone poems. They circle around an idea using whatever word is within reach, and expect you to understand the meaning based on shared connotations. These people are tiring to interpret. When I write something, each and every word was chosen specifically and with intention. The numbe…
At some point I realized that if I didn't want to be permanently frustrated, I had to adapt to the broad reality of how humans communicate. I introduced more context and redundancy into my writing, I learned to use analogies to make it easier for others to get the big picture. Most importantly, I stopped expecting every word I read to mean exactly what I thought it meant, and instead tried to get an idea of what they were trying to say, rather than fixating on what they were actually saying.
Years later I figured that I was autistic, and that it had played a big role in my difficulties trying to understand and be understood by normies.
I tend to be very exacting in my word choice. If I used a specific word, I meant it. Many people I find speak in what I would describe as tone poems. They circle around an idea using whatever word is within reach, and expect you to understand the meaning based on shared connotations. These people are tiring to interpret. When I write something, each and every word was chosen specifically and with intention. The numbe…
Perhaps you should ask the manager why he passed it through AI. It might be that with precision, readability is lost. It's a tradeoff: the more compressed your language is, and hence the more precise, the more cognitive effort you require the reader to expend on each word. Reading is a translation from your mental model, as expressed in words, to the readers mental model. Words alone don't perform this translation, t…
Earlier quoted context omitted.
Perhaps you should ask the manager why he passed it through AI. It might be that with precision, readability is lost. It's a tradeoff: the more compressed your language is, and hence the more precise, the more cognitive effort you require the reader to expend on each word. Reading is a translation from your mental model, as expressed in words, to the readers mental model. Words alone don't perform this translation, t…
>Perhaps you should ask the manager why he passed it through AI. Note that the manager may or may not have incentive at all to provide useful or even meaningful feedback. I mean, he did pass on an incorrect version of the documentation, didn't he? hi! yes. perhaps he wil write inchoate sentence like point out which word is wrong >One suspicion I have is that your one-pager was passed through AI because it was too ter…
The very first sentences should clear warnings not to modify the document, and read it entirely. That the contents of the document are short (And if that still doesnt work, arrange a 15min meeting with relevant stakeholders and go through the document quickly before releasing it.
It is my view that we have always been an oral species, and the great tyranny of the written words always a great burden, and any writing of any complexity or technical depth, out of reach for all but an elite.
Speaking to people in a meeting allows them to emote, express difficulty of understanding, understand the sentiment and priority of what they're hearing -- and most of all, it allows them to listen rather than read. People speak at a much lower information density, and this is a less taxing form of communication.
Writing has always been a great burden. It should not be elevated to, nor equivocated with, some great utility or intellectual practice. That was for an era where sound was harder to record and transmit than words; and where meetings required moving around the world.
A kind of writing which makes reading even harder is an even worse pathology. This isnt writing for a species of ape, but some one deranged enough to expend cognitive effort in such inhuman ways.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
Perhaps you should ask the manager why he passed it through AI. It might be that with precision, readability is lost. It's a tradeoff: the more compressed your language is, and hence the more precise, the more cognitive effort you require the reader to expend on each word. Reading is a translation from your mental model, as expressed in words, to the readers mental model. Words alone don't perform this translation, t…
This is an insane response to someone having their carefully written work casually bastardized by an LLM that rewrote the entire design spec without even being informed. The amount of institutional noise generated by such carelessness far exceeds whatever improvement in readability you could possibly imagine. Any criticism you could aim at the original text that you don't even have on hand (i.e. are completely specul…
Since the poster here wears his personality and writing motivations on his sleeve, it is very obvious to me that he writes at cross purposes with those who read. he says very clearly: he writes for precision, expended a vast cognitive effort per word.
Even if, in this instance, my analysis is wrong -- its a comment for the poster here worth considering. Because people don't like to read writing which has taken such effort to produce, because it then requires a great effort to read.
You assume what they say is the same as what they are thinking The converse is also true. People saying something assume that people listening are understanding and thinking about the same thing. This is why it's important to write things down in details and as-unambiguous-as-you-can forms. If you're in a meeting and someone puts up a slide deck with a 6 word bullet point that 'explains' what they want, that is a sig…
> about the same thing yes. I have to keep telling my colleagues "about what?" for about 4-5 times in a row, at least twice daily, until they finally realize they have to tell me which client, feature, product or whatever else they are referring to. Even if i know exactly what yhey are talking about.
I basically have to ask that almost every other time someone starts a conversation.
They talked for 3 minutes and never actually articulated a problem or request but just sort of recounted some seemingly random but presumably related facts.
I tend to be very exacting in my word choice. If I used a specific word, I meant it. Many people I find speak in what I would describe as tone poems. They circle around an idea using whatever word is within reach, and expect you to understand the meaning based on shared connotations. These people are tiring to interpret. When I write something, each and every word was chosen specifically and with intention. The numbe…
I used to select my words very carefully and feel frustration when people misinterpreted them or did not understand the precise angle behind that choice. Reading other people's communication would often be confusing because they were not nearly as precise in their language. At some point I realized that if I didn't want to be permanently frustrated, I had to adapt to the broad reality of how humans communicate. I int…
However I also sometimes cannot find the correct precise words to describe what I mean in unambiguous, but also concise words, so I sometimes choose much less precise words for lack of a better alternative. Oftentimes I denote that when I find it important, but it happens way too often to do that every time.
Also words simply aren't completely precise. A word might be perfectly fitting for what I want to say with it in a situation, but someone else understands it as something slightly different and they are not wrong about it. Words often simply do not have one exact shared meaning.
Natural language is imprecise and it is fundamentally a lossy compression function. One that uses a shared dictionary that is not identical for both encoder and decoder. You simply need some amount of error correction in encoding and decoding.
I tend to be very exacting in my word choice. If I used a specific word, I meant it. Many people I find speak in what I would describe as tone poems. They circle around an idea using whatever word is within reach, and expect you to understand the meaning based on shared connotations. These people are tiring to interpret. When I write something, each and every word was chosen specifically and with intention. The numbe…
> They circle around an idea using whatever word is within reach, and expect you to understand the meaning based on shared connotations. These people are tiring to interpret. I find this notion a little strange. The implication here is that words are precisely bounded to bounds of thoughts. Language is a representation of our world (and our individual understanding of it) - we all (including you) will use different w…
It's true that misunderstandings can arise between people who both tend to communicate very explicitly, but they're just different from the kinds of misunderstandings that occur with people who tend to leave more disambiguation work to the interpreter. I'm feeling lazy atm so idk what to say about that except that you'd know it if you saw it.
It's true that the details are messy, but in practice it's not that difficult to recover basic concepts related to such differences in personality like "more literal" vs. "less literal" in a way that's useful.
> I’m sure if I spoke to your counterparts in the scenario you described they’d say different words which also ultimately amounted to something like “it’s difficult to interpret what they’re saying.”
Yes and no. Lots of people who speak in a way that relies more heavily on (real or presumed) shared context react to precise turns of phrase from their counterparts who prefer explicitness like "Wow! You're so good and finding the right words for things.". When they do misunderstand, they're typically less likely to notice. You only usually get the "you're difficult to interpret" realization from them if you are discussing a specific misunderstanding and you come upon a logical or grammatical distinction they just can't see.
I'm not a linguist or communications scholar and idk if any work has been done to see whether related traits really form identifiable profiles or personality types or whatever, but at least some individual traits and behaviors that I associate with these personality differences are pretty easy to measure. For example: the "intuitive" speakers/listeners tend to make more use of anaphora as well as more difficult (more distance in the conversation from the referent) and more complex (the referent may not be the most recent grammatically compatible named thing/person) use of anaphora. They also tend to see more ambiguous use of quantifiers as grammatical (little sensitivity to "surface scope/logical form isomorphism").
Idk what to tell ya but there's a real spectrum here. If you fall in the middle of it, it might be easy to miss. But for people at opposite ends of it, the kinds of communication they encounter with one another are pretty unmistakable.
Relatedly, there's a single load-bearing word in GP's comment that you seem to have missed or given inadequate emphasis:
> Many people I find speak in what I would describe as tone poems.
It's that first word I've emphasized above, "many". They're not running into this kind of communication problem with everyone. That should increase the curiosity you hint at in the beginning of your comment, because it suggests that this is not the simple problem of one person assuming everyone can/should automatically understand them as well as they understand their own statements. Their experience and their self-report of it describes a structured and selective clash in communication (down to their admission/suggestion that they may be on the autism spectrum) which your reply seems to miss.